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Designing IoT Solutions for Hard-to-Connect Places

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

IoT is transforming the way we approach intractable problems like poverty, sustainability, and climate change, especially in remote regions like Africa. But there are many challenges inherent in bringing connected devices to these isolated places.


Jit Bhattacharya, Principal at Factor(e) Ventures, joins the podcast to talk about engineering IoT solutions for areas with unreliable connectivity.


Topics we covered:

- 3 challenges of developing an IoT solution for remote areas

- How lithium-ion batteries are changing the landscape

- The importance of data in developing products and gaining industry buy-in

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While we dream of this extraordinary future, the reality is that this technological revolution seems incapable of solving some of these really intractable problems that we have here on earth. You are listening to over the Air Iot connected devices and the journey, brought to you by vary. In each episode we have sharp, unfiltered conversations with executives about their IOT journeys, the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned and what they wish they'd known when they started. All right, welcome back to over the Air IOT connected devices in the journey. My name is Ryan processers, CEO vary. My name is Luke Willow, chief product off ser very, and we're joined today by jet, by a charia principle at factory ventures, to discuss the process of connecting devices in hard to connect places. Jet, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Ry So, jet, set the scene for us a little bit. What was the you're in Nairobi. This is now our second guest from the Silicon Savannah. Talk about, like the decision that you made to relocate from California to Nairobe in like just a little bit about your your background leading up to today. Yeah, well, it's really exciting to hear that I am not the first guest from East Africa that you have had and you've had on this podcast. I think it speaks to to the exciting things that are happening in that market right now. So I started my career in Silicon Valley over a decade ago. I was actually the CEO of an electric vehicle technology company. It was called mission motors. We were a fantastic company developing the highest performing electric motorcycle in the world and and that's really a where I got my feet wet and and learned everything I need to know about how to develop products, how to develop high tech products, was in that Silicon Valley atmosphere. And the great thing about the Silicon Valley Environment is that we get to marvel every day at what technology can accomplish. We can dream of driverless cars, going to going to Mars, flying taxis, all of these things every single day. But while we dream of this extraordinary future, the reality is that this technological revolution seems incapable of solving some of these really intractable problems that we have here on earth. You know, for example, we are talking about going to Mars in the next decade. And yet in subs are in a place like Subsharan Africa, and not just Africa, India Southeast Asia, there's over six hundred million people who still don't have electricity in their home. So that means they have to go home and light a kerosene lamp, technology from the eighteen hundreds, just in order to be able to light their home study with their kids. And that's an everyday kind of problem. So I was motivated to go back and take everything I learned about technology and start to work on these problems. And what I found is that, while technology hasn't solved these problems,...

...it is already transforming the landscape. Where we can begin, and cellular and Iot is at the core of that. Africa, as an example, has leap frogged landline phones and it's gone straight to cellular. And a place like Africa now almost everyone, rich or poor, has a mobile phone and that phone, even if it isn't a smartphone, it's way more than a device for making calls. It's their bank, it's their credit card, it's their ID, it's their connection to the world. And that transformation of cellular coming into a lowincome market, emerging market like Africa. It has transformed. It's created a whole new world for how we can start to address problems like poverty, like sustainable development, like climate adaptation, because climate change is affecting these equatorial countries more than any other place on earth. And for me in particular, I became fascinated with this transformation and how I could begin to apply my experience to solve this problem, especially of energy poverty. So that's what motivated me to get to Africa out of Silicon Valley. So one of the questions I had it in especially in going through things with your pre interview, it really struck me that a lot of the technical challenges that you're focused on and that you're solving for our very like they're things that were also seeing at very in like AGTEC, for example. So, like one of them that comes to mind is engineering an IOT solution in an area where connectivity is intermittent. You know, we see that a lot in the ACTEX space. Can you talk about the journey, some of the challenges that you've faced and had to overcome to be able to solve for that in Africa and and like the connective tissue? That would tie that back to rolling out like either industrial solutions or actex solutions in a developed market like the United States, but that might see similar issues to what you've had to face. My current role is I'm I'm a technology venture capitalist. I'm a principle with factory ventures and we are technology VC INVESTING IN STARTUP Company started technology companies working in this space, around agriculture, around energy, around mobility. However, before joining this fund, I was actually the chief technology officer a company called Phoenix, and what we were doing a phoenix where one of many companies now working on the African continent and similar to companies working in India. We were selling fully off grid power systems to those that six hundred million homes. I mentioned, six hundred million people, I mentioned who don't have access to the grid. We were selling fully off grade power system, so a sellar panel, lithium ion battery, the appliances that connected to it, to low income homes in very hard, we hard to reach places in rural Africa. Now, solar panels, looking a mind batteries, these are expensive technologies and the way that we made them affordable was by financing the sale, and that financing was made possible through cellular technology. So just imagine for a second men and women who own a one acre farm. So these are low income individuals, low income households. They live over an hour away from their nearest town and they don't have cars,...

...so they're waiting for a bus or a motorcycle to come pick them up take them to that town, since it's a really hard to reach place. And what our technology, combined with cellular, enabled was it allowed us to sell them this solar panel and battery system. Over time. The customer would make a payment from their home using their mobile phone, using something called mobile money, and then the off grade energy system that we developed was cellular connected. So once they made a payment, we were able to apply that credit to their system over the air and if they ever ran out of credit, the system would automatically lack at lockout. So we could create an incentive for payment in that way and in this manner we were actually able to create an effective financing scheme with manageable risk. And then the best part is that with each payment that these homes made, they were actually building equity in the system. So after one or two years they owned their own source of energy. And this was a home that up until they own this energy system. There were using caresy. Now Cellular was key to all of this. Through the IOT connection, we were able to monitor the performance of this system because if it ever broke, it was very difficult for us to get to this home and be able to repair it or replace it. We were able to monitor how customers were using it. Through the IOT connection, we were controlling access to this device and we should actually even managed we developed a technology to manage other devices through that IOT connection and then through a local RF network. So we were actually in the process of managing multiple devices, financing multiple devices. Now, the challenge we faced is in developing an iot product and effective iot product for this market. We had to deal with three enormous challenges, and I think these challenges are very similar to what you will see in the act text space in a place like the US. So number one, we had to assume unreliable connectivity and coverage when you're working in rural areas. Even with the massive amounts of money that they're going into cellular networks across the world and especially in emerging markets, you still cannot count on coverage in all of these places. These are very difficult, very remote and even when there is coverage, the coverage is going to be unreliable, so it will be intermittent. You cannot count on a persistent connection. Will Give you an example when here we're developing a device where a customer makes a payment and they are counting on that device to be unlocked so that they can turn on the lights in their home. But what happens if they don't have a cell connection? All of a sudden we can't send the signal to unlock that device. So we had customers picking up their device some of our prototypes when we were testing this out. They were walking around rural Africa with a battery in their hand trying to find a cell signal. That is not something we first predicted and really taught us. Okay, we are going to need to build in a back up here. We need to think about our user interface, we need to even think about our business model so that when a customer makes a payment they're able to get power, because that's the fundamental service were providing. So I was one huge, huge area that we had to deal with in this also created gaps in the data that we were collecting on how the device was performing. So as we were trying to build this map and this picture of how the batteries,...

...especially we're degrading. We had to deal with the fact that, okay, the cell connection for some of our homes might be out more hours of the day than it was on, and so how are we going to go through and build in data buffers, package data in a in an effective way so we can still build a complete picture despite the fact that count activity is going in and out. so that unreliable connectivity is probably the biggest issue that we face and has to come into the product design when we're designing Iot for these markets. Second is we are dealing with connections that are low bandwidth, and not just low band with but also expensive bandwidth. So when we were connected and collecting data from the system or transmitting data to the system, we had to think very carefully about every bite of data that we were transmitting. It all had to be intentional and we even had to think about how we were packaging that data. So we were think of looking at very simple compression algorithms, compression schemes that we could implement on thirty two bit micro controllers. Not something that we predicted when we first started this project, but the only way in which we could get the system to ultimately work and function the way that we promised the customers. And then last and just as important, in something that I know that the ad text space faces quite frequently, is limited power availability. So remember, what we were selling was an off grid power systems. That means every ounce of battery capacity inside that device was ideally going to be put towards lighting the customers home, charging their phones, running their television or some other appliances. Every ounce of power that we used for the IOT connection was power that was not going to the customer in this off grid device. So and and the GSM modems that we were using were power hungry. So one of the other issues, even though we had unreliable connections, the other reason we couldn't rely on a persistent connection is we could not keep the GSIM radio on the entire time. So how do you design these solutions to be incredibly power efficient so you're maximizing your battery capacity in your battery life, even if you're not selling the energy from the battery to a customer. If you're using a battery in a device that needs to last days before it can be recharged. That has to become part of the design specification now, an important part of how you're configuring the technology. So those three key issues, you know, working in these in this context. Unreliable connectivity, low band with an expensive bandwidth and then limited power available for your IOT connection. These are key to making us an IOT solution work within this context. So, jet, you have answered questions one through seven. So I think luke and I each had one curveball. To keep your end metos. Luke, go ahead. What was yours? I guess I was thinking without obviously going in anything proprietary, but if, for Gent, two of your product other than probably backpack straps. They can walk around but their whole unit on their bag, what other product evolution features or technologies did you kind of push into that next generation to help solve some of these connectivity or power efficiency problems?...

Yeah, so, on the connectivity front, the only solution that we could really especially when you have something that needs to be immediate right. So when a customer makes a payment, you want to make sure that they can use the energy or use the device right, like we were selling a power system, but this applies for any device where customer makes a payment, you're relying on an Iot connection for them to be able to get access to that device. What we found is that when you're in a low, low connectivity environment, you have to have a backup, you have to have an alternative, otherwise your customer experience is just going to degrade. So, in parallel to the IOT solution, which the Iot lock and unlock, was by far and away the most effective solution for us in developing this product, we also developed a more manual scheme where they could enter a code, we could send them a code to their phone and they could use a code to to be able to lock and unlock their device. Newer solutions that I know a number of companies working in these environments are looking at is now you're starting to see an uptick in the number of smartphones that are available in these markets. So most of our customers were still not using smartphones. They're just using regular, old mobile phones. But with smartphones, who are you now have, as you have the opportunity to leverage the Bluetooth from the smartphone, and so can you actually create a connection to the users phone and then use that as an alternative means of transferring data when the devices IOT connection is not available. In every single product development that I have been part of or now that I'm interacting with as an investor, we are finding that the teams are having to continue to consider these alternatives in order to get over the the lack of reliability in the connection makes a ton of zones. Yeah, I had a question related to I guess what I would characterize is silver lining. So you're in a development environment that's got a lot of unique environmental challenges. The ones that aren't unique are definitely there's some difficult challenges. What silver linings have you uncovered in terms of like rolling out devices in Africa? Are there? Are there things where you're like wow, this is a you know, for example, I know you've mentioned like the lack of landline technology. Nobody cares in the two thousands, you know, because they jumped right to mobile. So you know, were you guys able to land on any characteristics of the environment there that led to faster development, better solution, something like that? I think the silver linings are there. I would say broad and macro. Number one is the amount of investment going into the overall cellular landscape right now in in emerging markets, because the entire economy is now being built on the backbone of cellular. What you're seeing is very appid expansion of coverage. You're seeing, I guess, a much faster expansion of say, three g availability. Yeah, we're still in really a tgthree g world for the most part. We're starting to see some for G and in cities, but it's mainly to G and three G and in rural areas. What you're starting to see us three G is becoming more available much faster than we would have expected, especially in these rural areas, and so we're able to now start to leverage that as we design...

...products and solutions. So that's one silver lining here is the amount of investment that's going in, because the entire economy is now being built on the cellular backbone, especially because cellular is being used through this thing called mobile money, mobile money, there are more mobile money accounts in Subsahar in Africa right now then there are traditional bank accounts by almost in order of magnitude. And so when you have this dependence on cellular, it means that the network is going to be getting better very, very quickly. So that's one silver lining. The other silver lining, I think working in emerging markets is that you find customers are incredibly adaptable. So they're still customers. You need to really put them first and think about exactly what their needs are make life as convenient for them as possible. But one of the things that you find is, and we found this with those customers who were taking our prototypes and walking around trying to find a cellular connection. For many of them they were they were okay doing that. They were like yeah, well, this is just what it's like to live in a rural area and live in and and try to get the benefits of these connected technologies while knowing that we're not always going to have connectivity. See, what you find is actually the customers are quite adaptable as well and and help you solve some of these problems alongside. So I would say those are the two silver linings that we really learn from our experience. Shifting gears a little bit and and like talking about this idea of servicing, or, let's say, deploying assets in hard to reach areas, in remote areas. Here in the United States, the forest service is like sort of the Og's of deploying like assets in these impossible to reach you know, so I've come into you live today from Boseman, Montana. These for service lookouts, you know, these cabins built on these tall peaks in really remote areas. I'm always struck when I wouldn't we hike up there, you know, we barely make it healthinpuff and whatever, and it come to and then there's a cabin there, you know, and somebody has slept up all of the the material. It really drives on the point that like servicing things and hard to reach areas is a really difficult problem. How, like can you talk about that, particularly through the Lens of battery powered devices? You know, how are you guys thinking about that? What are some you know, for folks out there listening today that are saying, Hey, look, we're like this sounds like my problem. I've got a battery powered device. It's going to be primarily deployed in, you know, difficult to access areas. What are some things that that they should be thinking about or like problems that you guys have had to solve for along the way? Yeah, well, right, actually, I'll give you an example first, not one that I have directly had to solve for, but I think it's just it's relevant to what you were just describing about Boseman, Montana and these lookouts. So one of the challenges that we have here. We talked about connectivity and lack of connectivity. As these telecoms are expanding coverage, oftentimes they're expanding coverage using off grid telecom towers. So Imagine Cell Towers that are not no longer grid powered,...

...they have their own solar array, they've got their own battery and these are really important assets. Everybody is relying on those assets to to be available and up and the power system that is powering those telecom towers. It's now one of the largest markets that you see here in emerging markets for for offgrade energy systems is actually powering these telecom towers. There's a big shift happening over to lithium ion batteries. Now lethiumian batteries are incredible technology. They are lower lifetime cost overall. The biggest thing they do for these off gride telecom towers and remote areas is they reduce how frequently the tower operators need to go and and service the batteries. When they were dealing with let acid batteries, they were having to go all the time to service these batteries. They were dying after a few years. With theumion batteries last a long time, but let themion batteries, as we know, they're still somewhat of a fragile technology. The fact that now were able to remotely monitor, control even optimize how those batteries are being used, so every single day of use is building another data point and how that battery is performing. It's giving us a little bit more insight into how we should be managing that system, some of the choices that she be made, either at the design side or in terms of operations. Remote monitoring and control is completely changing that landscape and we saw this on a much more microscale with what we were doing. So one of the one of the great things with remote monitoring and control is we're now able to take a lithium ion battery system and sell hundreds of thousands of these into really difficult to reach places. Normally that would seem incredibly risk what happens when these start to fail left and right? How do you tell if something is breaking? How do you tell if actually somebody is actually just trying to break into the box to be able to avoid the payment mechanism, and so that way basically tamper with the system get free access to the energy. These were things where if we were not able to remote get data, remotely monitor these systems and really build a picture of what's happening on a system by system basis and then for the entire population, this would be way too risky a proposition for us to be selling these types of lithium ion battery systems on a one to two year loan into these homes. So the whole business would not exist without remote monitoring and control. So I think it's really interesting how, on one hand, what you're describing, we have to solve it for the whole for the connectivity piece itself by powering these Telcom Towers, and yet ran the connectivity is also helping enable us do this deploy these more fragile technologies. I bringing up with emion batteries, but you can make a similar argument for some of these remote sensing technologies that are now enabling add tech or health tech, you know, health systems and health centers in really remote areas, all of these fragile technologies. As a result of being able to monitor control them remotely, we are able to deploy them with manageable risk, whereas before we were not curious. In the you know, I spent a lot of my life in battery systems, as you well know. But I'm curious in the United States, cell towers are typically, we're frequently now backed up with battery systems as well for the exact same reason that you're outlining. These are connected to the grid, but...

...the grid goes down because so many people have ditched their pot plan will televione services in love just having a connected cell device. That's now critical infrastructure, and so most of those are on battery backup and I'm curious if there are kind of lessons learn going back and forth, of lessons learned from kind of things you've done in Africa and these royal areas that are in emerging markets versus the royal areas and the US versus like, frankly, cell phone towers are not just in rural areas and there's still on dittery backup. If there's like kind of an ecosystem where all those lessons are being learned and fed back and forth and in each way, and I think that applies probably some of the other technologies that you're describing as well. I would say that the biggest lesson learned right now is the importance of data as we're starting to make this these decisions in this transition. So the traditional, for example, these offtwad energy systems powering telecom towers or sometimes even other, you know, other applications. It's just the Telcom Towers happens to be one of the most prevalent. One of the things that's happening is the traditional system you use, like I said, with let acid batteries, especially if it was off grade, use let ascid batteries, even if it was back up. In a market like the US, it was using typically let acid batteries. In the offgrade context, it was using a diesel generator and honestly, a lot of the power was mostly coming from the generator. Now we're starting to see that shift over to solar. Now we're starting to see the shift from let ascid the with you my on and yet a lot of the industry, as you know, has been very hesitant to make that shift. Let acid is a wellknown technology. It's really low upfront capital cost. Here you're coming in and saying, well, trust US technology, this technology is going to last it's going to save you money in the long term, but it's more expensive up front the more data that we have to show. Yes, let's show you how this is performing, let's show you how it's reducing your diesel consumption, but show you how it's easily going to last the lifetime. Plus, collecting that data is making the business case, because otherwise the business case was purely speculous. I think that that was the biggest lesson learned, as you have to have the data in order to get the buy in from the industry. That makes it tenses. That's excellent. Yeah, so jet transitioning to, you know, what I would call like connective tissue. So you're making these venture investments. You had A, you know, pretty amazing career in tech up to this point. One of the things that I was through interested to hear you expand on a little bit is this idea of data use. I know that when you guys during time it mission motors, that was like, I mean, you're it's an ev connected or it's an electric motorcycle. I think at one time had like a land speed record on a fairly prominent test track, like a hundred fifty three miles, an hour. Mistaken. Hundred and sixty two. One hundred and sixty two. Yeah, all right. So and what's nine miles per hour between friends? Can you talk a little bit about some of the lessons learned from then to now that you know have been disproportionately relevant maybe in surprising ways? I was thinking about it even as as Luke as that previous question and and going back and thinking about mission motors. Mission Motors was my first experience with a true IOT device. We we weren't necessarily calling...

...at that at that time, because this was back in two thousand and nine, two thousand and ten, but the motorcycle that we built as a platform for developing our electric vehicle powertrain technology, as a platform for demonstrating what it is that we could do. One of the things that we did very early on was we made sure that that vehicle was going to be fully connected and we could monitor everything that was happening and fairly high resolution whenever our protype motorcycles were were taken out for a drive, and whether that was driving on the track or whether that was just going for ride around town to test a new algorithm or something like that, and we built an entire data platform in the background. So we were streaming that day alive. Every time that motorcycle turned on, we were streaming that day alive. It was going into a web portal that we developed internally and at the time what I didn't realize is, yeah, that was my first experience with with building an Iot device and the power I think for me that fundamentally changed everything in my approach even to product development, seeing what we were able to learn and understand from that data pipeline coming from that vehicle, being able to monitor a both in real time and then be able to analyze the data offline after the fact. It gave us so much insight into improving our powertrain technology, improving our batteries or power electronics are motors. I cannot imagine developing a product without that type of data anymore, and so for me the biggest lesson learned here is just it feels to me like for any consumer electronics product, for any electronic product be to be or B Toc some aspect of that data connection, that data pipeline, has to be part of the product concept from the very beginning and especially important at the prototype stages where you're really trying to learn and and so ever since developing that data interface, it is now a part of every single project I work on. is how quickly can we guilded to get a data pipeline together from whatever product we're making up into the cloud where we can now start to to analyze in assess? Yeah, I think it's it's like with most complex features, the earlier you think about it in the design requirements prototype base, the better you can integrate that solution and I think that that's a very valuable ass it. It's also not an easy thing to like patch in later if you didn't think about it early on. So I think of those drive that need to be thinking about that very early design process. Yeah, jet, I know you know when I was asking you in the preaterview what are some of these like, you know, in your opinion, connective tissue type moments where you're like to solve problems here and now I'm pulling back from, you know, this previous time in my career. One thing you mentioned that I strongly subscribe to and I think it's like one of the great underrated elements of a successful company or project technology is just getting the ORG design right, like the Technical Organization expand on that and what you've seen. You know, the good,...

...the bad, the ugly. Yeah, I think one of the things that I have seen now and that I feel like I've learned from, from experience and and from getting it wrong previously, is the importance of product thinking and product management very early in a product development process. And specifically, I think this relates more to start ups. So it's start ups. A lot of times entrepreneurs are when we're founding a company, we are the initial product manager. We have an idea for a product or technology and how we think it can change the world or transformer market, and so we are basically getting started as product managers, just trying to get that initial idea a little bit of oxygen in order to see if it can work and the kind of impact it can have. But then the moment that that product starts to move forward, starts to gain a little bit of traction, and especially as entrepreneurs and executives, we need to move to broader priorities. So I building an organization, I'm raising money especially I think it's really important that we recognize we need that product function in order for the overall product Development Organization to thrive. I think too often there's a focus explicitly on engineering and just getting in really talented engineers, but somebody needs to be thinking about, okay, how is this actually relating to the customer? How are we making decisions about this product that really are ultimately going to affect the customer? And so one of the things for companies in our portfolio, companies that I work with and advise, I encourage them to pull in the product management function into their product development teams earlier, and when they do that I have found in general that those product development teams are much more successful in the first iteration of their product, being much closer to what is going to really start to scale in the market, rather than requiring two to three iterations before they're able to get there. So I think in terms of that organizational design, I think it's that product management piece that's quite often missing and that I always encourage people to prioritize a lot, a lot earlier, beyond just really talented engineers, which of course you also need. Totally agree. All right, so we're we're moving to to close. Couple of quick questions for you. You know you've seen a lot in your career batteries to bandwidth, cell service, solar. As you look at the landscape right now, what thing or company do you think is super cool but that nobody's talking about yet? Oh, what thing or company is super cool that people aren't talking about yet? Well, I'm going to have to put this in, you know, in the context of the market in which I work. Unfortunate, sure, so. Living in East Africa, I think sometimes we're not as well versed. I am not as well versed in what's happening in in silicon value. I'm sure there's incredibly cool things happening in Silicon Valley right now. I will say that the thing that's very, really cool happening within our in emerging markets right now is over the last decade we've...

...seen a really big transition to distributed energy systems and new ways of bringing the making those available, inclusive and accessible. The next big shift that's happening now is in electric mobility. In places like Africa and places like India specially, electric mobility is already taken off and what you're seeing now is electric mobility and places like Africa. And the really cool thing, the reason that I think it's particularly cool, is we are seeing business models that were tried in the US and didn't quite work. So, in particular, I'll just give you an example of one story back in the US in you know, sometime in the I want to say two thousand and eight to two thousand and twelve period, there was a company called project better place that was trying to do battery swapping for electric cars. Actually raised, I think the company raised almost a billion dollars and had a really big project working in Israel, but ultimately it didn't fly, for for any number of reasons. It didn't fly. And and in general I think we've seen most companies in the electric car space in the US move away from battery swapping. And yet battery swapping is now seeing a resurgence in a place like East Africa, but not for cars, actually for motorcycles. In East Africa one of the most common modes of transportation is actually motorcycle taxis. So after buses, motorcycle taxis are really common way for people to get around, sometimes with as many as three to five people on the back of the motorcycle, behind the behind the driver, carrying all their groceries and everything else. It's pretty it's a pretty remarkable site to see, something you've probably seen from photos of Vietnam and Southeast Asia as well. The cold thing is there are now a number of companies working in east Africa, including one of our companies, ampersand in Rwanda, that what they're doing is they're taking an electric motorcycle with a swappable battery, they're selling the motorcycle without the battery to motorcycle taxi driver and then these taxi drivers pull in to a swap station and in sixty seconds they swap out the battery, pay a small fee and then go on their way and in the process, basically what you have now is an electric mobility company that basically requires no behavior change on the part of these taxi drivers and could result in the complete transformation of the motorcycle taxi industry in a market like East Africa. So I might the reason I bring this up is I don't think a business like this is being talked about in the US, and yet it is incredibly cool. It's taking a concept that was first originated over a decade ago in the US and it's going to have transformative impact in in emerging markets. So that's the one that I would bring up and say I'm most excited about so for for a long time, ev enthusiasts like me, they've been watching the space. I want to say project better place. Is that the name of the Israeli startup that went really heavy on yeah, swamp for the the the car space. Totally Shyagon's and and then, Luke, you had a follow up comment, I think now. I was just going to say that. The market the idea that you're...

...outlining now. So I was at Uber before I joined very and as part of the jump program there, which ultimately got sold off. There are, and I know kind of so oics were gone this with people in Taiwan, but they're doing a lot of that for scooters and for any bikes and things like that, where they're working to set up kiosks and that sort of thing. We can go and swap it out and get credit actually for bringing it, if it's load, to get it charged up in the kiosk, because that's a that is the thing that's starting to make make its way through, certainly in Taiwan and also a bit in the US as well. All right, Gent last question. You might have missed this, but here in the US a Saturday night. Late night television viewers retreated to Elon Musk's debut hosting a Saturday night live is very in vogue to say that snl isn't funny anymore. I think we're now twenty years into that being what people say every time. Other than Will Ferrell and Chris Farley, in your opinion, who's the funniest person that's ever been on Saturday night live? Oh Man, funniest person who's ever been one? And I can't and I can't be will Ferrell or Chris Farley. No, I mean it's this is like I'm saying who's the best basketball player, but you can't say Jordan or Lebron, you know, like those are the two obvious ones. Will Ferrell Chris Barley off the table. Funniest SNL CAST member of all time? Well, I mean, I don't know, Ryan not. This might be a little provocative and and politically incorrect or politically very correct, but for me over the last four years it was definitely Alec Baldwin and I will I will leave it at that. So as I'll let you decide if you want to edit that one out. No, I love it. Will make that's that's a great one, and and bonus points for choosing a host. Not So. I don't think he was ever ever cast that star. There's a that's very yeah, I think he's hosted more than anyyone else. Okay, jet. Thank you for those that want to keep up with you and your journey. Working folks follow along. Yeah, the best place this to find me on Linkedin. Just look up chip out of Charia. I should be fairly easy to find and and thanks again, Ryan for having me cool. Thanks for being here. All Right, folks, that's it for today. Thanks for listening and we'll see you on the Internet. You shouldn't have to worry about IOT projects dragging on or unreliable vendors. You've got enough on your plate. The right team of Engineers and project managers can change a pivotal moment for your business into your competitive edge varies. Close Knit crew of ambitious problem solvers, continuous improvers and curious builders know how to turn your ideas into a reality on time and up to your standards, with a focus on mitigating risk in maximizing opportunity, will help you build an Iot solution that you can hang your hat on. Let's bring your Iot idea to life. Learn more at very possiblecom. You've been listening to...

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