Moonshot Engineering Projects: Getting Innovative Initiatives Off the Ground

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

You’ve been given the reins of a moonshot engineering project. The company’s big, make-or-break initiative is in your hands and all eyes are on you. Feeling lost? Overwhelmed? No idea where to start?


In this episode, new co-host, Luke Wilhelm — Chief Product Officer here at Very and a veteran leader of big consequential projects — doles out advice for overseeing critically strategic engineering initiatives.


Topics covered:

- Advice for newbies leading a really big initiative

- Options for changing the scope of a project midstream

- Tips for effectively managing up

- Why saying “no” often makes saying “yes” more effective


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The ability to like take solutions thatare designed for one thing over here left field and apply them in new andnovel ways is a really awesome way to generate new products and new progresson areas that haven't been achieved before you are listening to over theAir Iot connected devices and the journey brought to you by vary in each episode. We have sharpunfiltered conversations with executives about their IOT journeys,the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned and what they wish they'dknown when they started hey everyone welcome back to over theair connected devices and the journey. My name is Ryan Prosser, CEO, very andtoday, I'm joined by Luke Wilhelm, former head of hardware for Ober'sflying car project and various current chief product officer. Most importantly,my new co host Luke welcome to the show thank you righting good to be herelooking forward to the journey on your podcast and I your new company. So thiswould be fun. Our podcast today we're talking about moon, shot engineeringprojects. So first some background. Luke is anold friend of mine. We were last work together in two thousand and nine orten look. You were the VP of engineering at a company called greencharge, networks flash forward ten or eleven years, and you know you're, likeI said, running hardware for Oger's flying car project. I'm sure that's notwhat ooper calls it. That's what Ryan calls it? Can you talk a little bitabout your journey, so, like start us off, what were we doing at green charge?You know talk about, maybe some of your your time, an apple and then Uber and-and you know where some of the things you're going to be up to hear it veryyeah sure. So I guess it helps a little bit the background before I got togreen charge networks, as you know. Well, as you know, but I'm not sure ouraudience knows green charge. Networks did a lot of work in grid energy,storage and kind of energy management of buildings and Emin chargers andsolar installations, and prior to that, I had worked at two other batterytechnology companies, both in Nikomedia Hydra and then later with him ionbatteries. Doing everything from sell design manufacturing plants to barrypacks, mostly automotive, so I met you guys and worked there for a while.After I left you, I went to to the moved up to the bar here in SanFrancisco and worked at a solid state battery company called Quans. Cape justmade a lot of news recently. They just went public this past year in this pack,which is a very interesting and difficult chemistry problem aroundbattery technology. After that I went to apple for a little over three years,I think led a pretty substantial cross, functional team there, developing kindof of to say a new product systems that were pretty complicated and cut acrossa lot of disciplines involved, new facilities involved, lating part gamesbut innovating and inventing new solutions to hard problems. Then I wentto Hobern. As you say, I took over the...

...hardware engineering function for theflying car project, which I think they would rather me call who were elevate that that recently also sold out fromOber to a company called job Av Ations, that's where they are and when thatkind of transaction happened is when I joined you and buried chief productofficer and I'm super excited about getting into the space, I think bringssome of my background across manufacturing and technology andengineering solution sets and team building andbringing that kind to the very space in the IO t space in general, which is akind of a new area for me. So I'm very excited to dig into it and kind of getthe best of both Worlin yeah great we're going to talk, maybe on the backend of the program about some of the technology investments that very makesin the connected device. It ecosystem, which I was basically Luke's mandate,is kind of overseeing that, but one of the things that's always reallyimpressed me about you- is major companies. Trust you to oversee thesehuge critically strategic engineeringinitiatives, and you know it's always struck me that,like that is definitely I don't know your strongest suit for folks that areout there. You know today we're talking about moon, shot engineering projectsso like things that a company is going after, that are like a really biginitiative, something that you definitely know a thing or two aboutright off the bat somebody out there in the audience is saying man. This isexactly what we're doing at my company and I'm leading that initiative. Whereare some of the things if they're a first timer leading you know a majormoon shot type of initiative as Luke is looking at this? Let's say you werehaving a beer sitting across the table. What pieces of advice would you give tothem that maybe they're not thinking about going in or or maybe a personwouldn't normally consider right off the bat sure? I think I'm sure thereare a lot of things going through somebody's mind. Having been there anumber of times sitting in that position. I think the things that jumpout of me is the most important ones to focus on, and I don't know theywouldn't have thought of these. But it's definitely what I would spend thetime on. One is building a really high quality team around you of kind of likeyour lieutenants. Essentially, that are going to be much, maybe even betterexperts, in particular particular areas and really like helping you gaugewhatever the highest risk items are in this crazy thing that you're about totake on what things you have to invent, what things need pushing newtechnologies to do, applications or whatever, but really like building upthat first line, that core team and it's really easy to push that off,because you're trying to do so, many things to get the project off theground and so you're trying to do everything and all these differentareas and really what you need to be doing is focusing on hiring and it'svery difficult to have the discipline. To do that, I remember we were firstbuilding up our team at Apple. I think I was maybe the second person on theproject in my world there we basically gave up and started spending allSaturday and Sunday doing like interview panels, or we just likeinvite. The candidates would have to...

...come in on Saturday. We'd have peoplefrom the staff like focus there all day on Saturday all day on Sunday and didit multiple weekends in a row, basically just to get the team built,because we just had to get it off the ground like that, really is the mostimportant thing. I think. The second thing after that and kind of loded toit earlier is really identifying those things are going to be the highest riskgirdles and he in the life span of this project that you're trying to take onand make sure you're hiring into that and you're resorcin that and you'reprepared to resource that sufficiently to like ever overcome whatever thoseobsticles and challenges are so it sounds, like you know, right off thebat you're saying focus heavily on team yeah. Absolutely I mean there are veryfew things in this world where one person is like doing it. I mean, evenif you play golf as a professional, I'm pretty sure you've got a swing coachand a caddy and much other people helping you like life is a team sportand anything that I've worked on. That's a consequential big project isdefinitely a big team sport and you really need to build that trust in thetop down. You need to trust the people that are around you to do their jobsand them to trust people that are doing their jobs for them and, I think,really building a like a team. That's got good chemistry that gets to getsalong well together. That's something that I've kind of you previously hadvery done. A great job of the team is like really awesome. I think we wereinterviewing. You told me it's something like if you come to our likein all hands or a dinner party, and it was like all the employees. You can'tget stuck at a bad table, any table that you said that you're going to wantto talk to the people that are around the table and that's really importantin any of these big projects, because it's going to get hard it's going toget middle of the night for am hard. It's Conlie you're going to head roughpatches and you just need people. You can be candid with and honest with, andI think you know you'll probably hear more about this as we talk through thethrough the the episode, but essentially being honest and clear, isdefinitely something I firmly believe in, and I believe it leads the higherprobability of success, even when those conversations are difficult and painfuland people's feelings get hurt, and you know all kinds of bad things can happen,but that clarity and honesty builds an integrity with the people that arearound you and with the people that are investing in whatever you're trying togo to totally. It's a deeply held principle for me that liking, who youwork with, is critically important. I think people too often viewed as a niceto have, in my view, it's like a must have when you're thinking about riskassessment, so you talked about like probability of success. I definitelyshare your view that life is not zero's in tens. You know it's theprobabilities in the middle of like and you're doing, the things you can do toincrease the probability of success. Can you talk a little bit about lot?Shots are going to have these, I mean their moon shots. So, like risk isbaked into this thing, you know and it's a they're risky endeavors highrisk. I reward talk about risk assessment. What does that look like?How does it? How do you think about that? Through the Lens of Planning, aproject and the up front, you know the way you're viewing it the way, you'recommunicating it. The I don't know like go yea. It kind of depends on the phaseof the project that you're in so the in...

...the early and a big project. Kind ofthe thing you want to think about in terms of risk are really what needs tobe invented. That's never been done before now, if you're, fortunate orlucky or you plan a project, it's not totally impossible. Maybe it's taking atechnology, that's cutting edge in one space and applying it in a new novelway, and that's going to give you a solution that you're looking for thathappens. Sometimes people are developing new materials and newprocesses all the time for some particular thing, and it turns out.Maybe it's not even great for what they were trying to do, but you can use itin this other way. That's actually first shattering in that world andthat's kind of like an ideal scenario. That's the thing you really want to be.After other times you have to like invent new physics or not venuses, to discover newways of using the physics that exist to son problems that have never been sawedbefore and that's very common in the energy storage space. You see a lot inbattery chemistry technologies and a lot of universities publishing paperson things that are coming out. I mean the with the my on batteries. You knowit today was in Ben in the S by seventy right. So it's like that's been around.That instance of that battery has been around that long, basically unchanged,and every every year somebody busted out this say: We've saw this newelectric chemistry problem and they haven't solved the new electricchemistry problem and then you wind up back with you saying batteries and andit's part of the the disciplined apple. If you look over the years there, theydidn't invent new chemistry really to like make their batteries better andbetter and better, but they just grind out every micron of extra space everyyear, year after year, and getting three or five percent every year, andreally like like working on refining and perfection and understandingeverything all the way down to the end degree. So I think, as you get intomanaging a project and getting off the ground, the way you're starting toassess risk a little bit different and that's like the project, management, tr,effective rights, cost quality and timing. Those three things are likewhat you're always trying to optimize around. You can kind of push and shovethem around, depending on where you are what the highest risks are, but thoseare the things you're trying to optimize to get all of them over theirgoal line kind of the same time. What what is your view on you know? Aproject is under way. It's a you know some percentage completely fiftypercent. Seventy five percent complete and the team discovers that thelandscape has changed. Some new technology has entered the market placethat fundamentally, let's say negatively impacts like some better mouse trap has come out orsome better approach has come out. That now makes the project under weigh lessinteresting, less valuable, you know, is it like. I guess one school thoughtis like hey show must go on, get the thing complete, get it shipped and theniterate or you know, tip over and back to the drawing board. Like? Canyou talk about your view on that and and what you've seen work in yourcareer yeah? I think there are kind of a couple of ways to think about thattype of a scenario. So one of them is it does in the company that you're in,if you're in a scrappy, start up you've...

...pretty much sung everything you've gotinto this idea and you're eighty five percent of the way there and somebodycomes out with a widget, that's better than your wig. It you got to make adecision. Can you afford to restart or a D and still like, keep the companytogether and make a better thing or overcome what they've come out with, oris it that you're probably a longer term success better to get the thingout there that you've already pretty much sung your company's resources intoand kind of getting that across the bow line, and that's really a businessdecision? You have to make that decision based on that, I think ingeneral, if you're, not, if that's not your only products, so if you're anapple or Hobe or whatever some company, it's got lots of revenue streams andyou're on a particular moon shot deal. Somebody comes out with the thingthat's way better. Then there's like two two options. I think one of thoseoptions is you kill that project, because the thing that you were doingno matter how? Well you do it can't be better than the thing that just cameout for some. Whatever reason that makes that thing better or and thescenario that happens, a lot O and a company like Apple, which is thatpeople you're like well down the way to solving a problem or engern a Dan orbuilding a product, and somebody on your own team, were from one of thelike cod teams that you're working with or whatever some other discipline comesup with an idea and they're like hey. What? If you make the thing like thisor you implement, this design feature there and it totally like blows up whatyou were doing. But it's a great idea that company apple was very not shyabout shooting ideas in the head that have a better way of getting done andtaking on the new thing and starting over. And I remember when I was workingon a project there and we had. We had one design attributes who were tryingto solve for and we had all kinds of people working at. We worked on at somany different ways and you kind of knew the right way to do it. But we did.We studied it from every possible angle and one of these long time old, schoolapple, guys, like a thirty year better in a hat, but he's like he's like Lok.Sometimes we walk all the way around the block and look at all the housesjust to wind up right next door, but the goal is to like thoroughlyunderstand the thing that you're trying to solve and then solve the best way,and if somebody comes up with a better idea or a smarter way to do it later,don't be shy about taking that on and tearing up what you've already done andtaking the new path. So look. One of the things you mentioned earlier wasthe inherent riskiness of an instance where you have to insert invent thisthing into a gat shirt. It's baked into the process. You are not going to beable to avoid that thing. I feel, like that's an underappreciated risk for alot of people. You know they look at their gant chart and they're like look.Eighty percent of this is commonly available things that we justneed to invent this, and this and this and then we've got this. You know gamechanging device, I know, will Helms law, which I have named after you you've notnamed it after yourself, full disclosure for the audience, but isthis idea that that's driving step function risk at each instance ofinvention? Can you expand on that a little bit and like for folks out therethat that are looking at their Gan chart and seeing must invent? This mustinvent this. What do they need to know and what maybe aren't they fullyconsidering or o? Should they be yeah?...

I think if you have to truly invent newthings like new chemistries or new materials to solve a problem, that'snever been saw before that's a very hard near impossible thing to put on aGan chart and plan it to a national project. You in my mind, if you have towrite that line item, that's like like invent new material day by here, youhave like dropped the probability of timely success by two orders ofmagnitude. I'm sure it's it becomes much much harder to predict wherethings are going to go. There's lots of stuff that's hard to do, but it's aboutexecuting and doing the blocking and tackling- and you know like flying carworld, for example, you know, as you put it in even tall and doing thingslike like weight, composite structures and propellers and wing design and lowlow acoustic noise profiles, like all that stuff is hard, but it's all moreor less known technologies that you're trying to tweak and optimize to makebetter but replacing what is jet field jed a with a battery system. That's five hundred times less energy dance isa much bigger problem, so you're like okay, we're going to have to invent asolution here, because this hasn't been done and and that's know, you want toidentify those risks, early put as many resources as you can on them partnerwith the best people in the world. If it's not your company find the companythat it is don't be egoistical about it, be humble about it admit that it's hardand get get partners lined up that you can trust and work with that can helphim try to solve this, those impossible or neeally impossible task, and you gotto get done so. Okay, let's take that and let'sstay on that, but through the lens of managing up okay. So you know someoneout: There is director of Engineering, VP of engineering whatever, and theirCEO is said- hey this. Is Our moon shot that we got to get this done? You knowthis is critical existential whatever one of the things you know, I've knownyou for fifteen years, one of the things that Luke is excellent at ismanaging up. You know and just like unflinchingly communicating informationthat in this case I am often the recipient of this, but the you knowthat the CEO does not want to hear it's in. Can it's an inconvenient truth ortruth? You got folks out there that might befind themselves in this situation where, like it's, a moon shot, but they feel,like. Maybe the CEO doesn't fully appreciate. You know the risk, theinherent riskiness of needing to invent three separate technologies orprocesses in order to make it true. What's worked for you? What can youshare with the audience about like how to effectively communicate that withinthe C suite yeah very early in my career, my first job out of college andI still had like dread locks? You know coming out of coming out of collegehalf way down my back and I was working on a project for Genl Motors, I think,and a company in Detroit, and I give him this pitch to like they're, sometop guys there and- and I co came up after me, he's like he's like dude. Idon't know how you do it, but you can talk to a c sweet and you can talk to aline worker with like perfect confidence at both of those levels andstill communicate your ideas really...

...well and that's a atribute you I leaveto latch on to my person. I obviously was like O, certainly complimented bythat. My approach with people in general- and I mentioned it earlier- isalways to be honest about it. A lot of people in my experience really reallyreally don't want to tell their bosses boss, their bosses, bosses, boss,terribly bad news and for good reason right, like nobody wants to deliverlike terrible news. My advice is too full one. The fact that you don't wantto say it doesn't make it like not true, so you kind of still have to deal withit is reality. So being honest about that, and getting over that hum earlyis important and two is to try to come with some solutions. You may not havethe exact solution, but it's way worse to deliver bad news, with no ideas onhow to approach attacking or solving the problem. Like if I come to you andis a Ryan were totally hosting this program, because we don't have thisthing that we really need and- and I just like end- the conversation thereand go home for lunch- like that's- probably not going to be a good day forme, and it certainly wouldn't be any of the larger companies that I've workedat in the past. If I tried to pull that with the Daraou, I don't think he wouldhave gone to it very well. So I think that you want to come with at leastsome ideas on how you can start proving that problem. Like here's, the problemspecifically, I think we can get after it by partner with this company thatdoes something similar or this team is approached something similar this wayor we're going to try to understand it deeper by buying this tool with hismicroscope, or this whatever and understanding that the problem betterand gives some like steps down the down the path. You may not see all the wayto the end of the path, but at least give some confidence that you're on ityou're trying to solve it and you're being open wide to different solutionscoming from anywhere that they present themselves. One thing that I've alwaysadmired about most of the of the hardware companies whose products Ifind that I am the biggest fan of they've, really weapon ized the word.No, they understand what they're trying to do and they say no to almosteverything and then it seems like you know what that leaves them free to whenthey say a yes go just completely nail, it take us behind the scenes. You know,as an engineering executive, how? How do you weapon ize now to helpyou make your yeses more effective or like help that drive more successfulproduct development outcomes? Yeah, I think you know at Apple, like it'sliterally taught to you and some of the exact level cons and strategy classesthat you wind up taking there as they invest to develop staff, to say noearly and often like that's one like the flash cards that you get. Basicallyof like a mantra- and I think through my career, the good CD that I've workedwith- are able to identify things that just don't add that, like for thereeither in the project for the wrong reason, some person invented it and sothey're personally attached to it. So it's lingering on this project, eventhough it's not really adding value, it's not doing the thing it should do so. Lots of good leaders have said notof things over the years, but apple was very formalized about it, like theyreally taught that, and now Steve Jobs was infamous for his his desire anddemand to be pushing ideas on to...

...customers right like deleting flappydrives and deleting CD drives, and all sorts of things like that and andsaying no to things that he considered superfused thought was superfluous.Ultimately, so I think that, especially if you're in smaller company, smallerstartup company, that's really strapped for cash, you don't have the luxury oftrying to pursue everything that might be fun to pursue. You really need tolike Harthe need to weed out the things are not going to add maximum value tothe actual solution that you're trying to chase after and try to eliminatethose prefer Al things that people very quickly. You can go down and spend alot of time and money or people's hours on that's not really on the right pathand so trying to constantly correct to stay on that right path to solve in theactual project problem like the real core issued mission that you're afteris super important, and that can be deleting features that can be deletingpeople that can be deleting organizations. It's it's correct in theproblem as soon as you can and saying not of things that are not solving thethe fundamental thing you're going after last topic related to. I guesswhat I will characterize as like some of the softer skills related tomanaging these moonshoes and often like at the top. It does come down tomanaging a lot of these softer elements. I have found that like when you lookunder the hood of most failed initiatives so which is different thanan initiative like that you killed in you said: Look this doesn't make sense,we're just going to you know divest from this. I think of failed is likethey just you know, company just missed something it brought it to market andit shouldn't have or it was executed in a sub optimal way. When you look underthe hood of a failure, I find that one of the ingredients in that soup isrationalization. You know so the team key people at key moments, rationalizedaway what was with retrospect, pretty obvious feedback and they said yeah,but you know or okay. Well, you know, and and instead of like absorbing thatreally difficult information, you know, I think, would have informed hey thisproject should not continue like this or in this direction. Is that somethingthat you know I can see you nodding your head like? Can you talk about thedangerous rationalization and like how would a person out there be able tomaybe identify that they're doing it without realizing it? I like, forexample, one of the things that I'm often looking for and asking people is.What is the question you're most afraid, I'm going to ask you be honest with me:Let's talk about this. What right now? Are you absolutely terrified I'm Gointo ask about, and then let's drill into that thing, you know because that'sprobably where rationalization is hiding, can you talk a little bit aboutthat from what you've seen behind the the scenes in some of these big moonshots that have gone good, bad or otherwise, yeah for sure I've been apart of lots of successes, but also a handful of failures in there as well,and I've definitely seen the...

...significant damage sometimes ofcorporate fatal damage that can be done by rationing away, rationalizing awayproblems that you just don't want to face. People have a really hard time alot of times, and I mean it's human nature. You know nobody wants to likede with negative news, especially if it's about people that they really likepersonally, but maybe they're, in a position where the doing a ton ofdamage in the company but they're a great person. They don't want to getrid of them or pull them out of that position in know it's going to hurtthem like I have seen that basically kill companies. I've had cos in my pastsay. Well, look I know you're telling me this guy shouldn't be in thisposition. That's going to really cost this! I'm like yeah, like it's going tokill us. If we don't solve this problem, you have to solve it, and you know Iwell I'd rather deal with the double in note and the devil I don't know and tome that was just I was just like. Oh Man, that's just the wrong answer, butyet you need to solve the problem, an to drop the band at off and deal withthe problem and solve it. So I guess that's t mainly how I think about thatis just just pushing honesty and I think, in terms of realizing you'redoing it yourself. You know over my career, I'm involved like personally,I'm sure, like most people do through their lives, and I was very kind oftype Batalla early in my young career kind of as a you know, bowling Chinashop, kind of a thing and matured over the years. I think one of the things Ireally focused on the last, like eight or ten years for sure it's kind ofhaving empathy for other people, like kind of assuming that people are tryingto do a good job and trying to solve the problem and not assuming thatthey're coming at it with malicious intent or or not just not capable ofsolving it, and it really like helps put yourself in a different perspective,and I think it also helps you manage different types of people and and a lotof projects have been doing with now. Words different nationalities, racesgenders whatever backgrounds sciences, disciplines, there's just so manydifferent personalities really like putting yourself in other people'sshoes. As often as you can and is a great way to help building bridges andbuild great teams, I think that's also a good way for you to reflect onyourself. You be thinking back about yourself and am I I do. I have a blindspot here. Like am I doing these things like making decisions based on personal,you know, relationships or whatever, and that based on what's best for thisproject, product of the team and the company? So that's that's kind of how Ithink about that. You just need to reflect on yourself and be honest withyourself and ask people that you trust. I mean you know the number one thingthat I said at the beginning of this is hiring great people around you andbuilding a great team and don't build a team. That's going to say yes to you,you know, like I remember I was I was kin member who was tacking to maybe itwas ben when I was interviewing with you guys he's like yeah we're,definitely not looking for. Yes, men is like well. That is not going to be aproblem, a definitely not for or for short, and I don't want tohire them. I don't want them around me like. I don't want those people andmost really good teams, don't have those people in them. They want peoplethat are going to be data driven and honest and attacking hard hard partsabout whatever is going on with with honesty, acart and data and be willingto put their personal like emotional...

...feelings. Aside like just because it'smy thing, that's getting shot down by ten other engineers in a design reviewdoesn't mean they don't like me or that the idea didn't have its merits. It'sjust that they've got good points and you need to adjust course. That's whyyou have this honest conversation yeah. I find that I cherish people around methat disagree with me like challenge my point of view, and that tell me thingsthat I didn't previously know, and often those two things go hand in hand.You know by challenging their pairing. That with Hey, I disagree you know hereis here, is additional information. I don't think you've considered or orhave or no I just at also goes back to that empathy point, because if you putyourself in other people's shoes, you can start to realize they don't haveall the information in the facts that you have. They have more in some areasand less in other areas and and remembering that before you over reactor Need York to a particular scenario is really important and because to yourpoint, it's like a lot of times. They didn't know the thing that they maybewould have got to the same answer year on if they would have had thatinformation. So I totally agree with you on them. Would you say that you'veseen more big projects fail because leadership rationalized away difficultpersonnel issues? Aka? I think everyone has seen what you were describing andprobably a lot of people. Audiences are nodding their head right now, sayingYeah Yeah I've seen instances where some key managers or direction triersor whatever should not have been on this team, maybe not even at thiscompany, but for you know various reasons that the difficult decisionswere not made to do anything there. So that versus you know, the insertion ofinvent thing here into Gat Charts, like which one would you say in yourpersonal experience, has killed more projects driven, more successful,unsuccessful outcomes. I should say yeah, I think the so I've definitelybeen a part of both. I will say the biggest failures company failures thatI've ever been a part of whether I was still there when they failed or not asa result of poor, poor, key people being in the wrong role like goodpeople that are in a roll, they're, not capable of running and a lot of timesthat those roles can be very expensive roles to be. In you know, coo typerolls or whatever, like those roles, were like they're, managing a lot ofmoney through the company and if they stare at the wrong direction, you canstart funneling dollar bills into a furnace very, very, very fast, and sothose are the biggest failures that I've seen of e company, that he notadvent not not invented by this date or not created new physics by the statechallenge definitely exists, but and if the team is honest about that, you'rekind of you know, that's a real thing. Like you know, that's a risk like Iwork on multiple battery Chemistries, where you're trying to invent achemistry. That's super stable and batteries are like really hard. Thingslike these materials that really want to get together and create a bunch ofheat are what microns, apart and you're jamming as much of it in these littletiny, like way boxes as possible and...

...lots of materials are not stable andall that environment the voltages. The chemistry is the chemicals that aregoing on like tons of stuff in there makes that very hard, and so, if theteam is honest about that and they're presenting data honestly and in thetransparent way, then the management will see that the magill understandthat if you have the back in more investors in your funders to toleratethat risk, those companies may not be in in some cases, still aren'tsuccessful and been around fifteen or twenty years, but they have an honestreport and can still go back again and fight another day and they're stillmaking progress down a really long, complicated road. I haven't seen likethe the scheduling of invention in an honest environment, kill a company orkill a program. I've seen people be disingenuous about results theregetting, and those types of things can also cost you tons of money becausesomebody's telling you like this thing is going to work and I've showing it onthis data that this is going to work, and it turns out fast forward a yearthat did a wasn't accurate, like something about it was wrong, like partof it was generated from one design and part of the generator from differentdesign or whatever somebody like did a thing that was kind of not genuine, andthat can cost you millions and millions of dollars and six months or a year orwhatever time, and so that can kill a company as well for sure yeah. On the subject of disingenuousreporting, you know I'm about half way through kin. Burns's documentary onVietnam- and I think you know Ken Burns- puts out fantastic documentaries andyou can see time and time again, Robert macnamara, you know reporting, franklydisingenuous feedback and and it like informing baseline assumptions thatthen others were building upon, and you know when your based on assumptions arenot just incorrect, but like bad faith created in bad faith, you know nobodyelse has very difficult to craft a winningstrategy on on that kind of foundation, and it'sthat time period now course is so so obvious with the benefit of fifty orsixty or seventy years of history wasn't as obvious at the time, but youcan now see, with the benefit of that, that, like disingenuous reporting ofmetrics and information and feedback basically set everybody else up,including two presidents of the at least two presidents of the UnitedStates up for colossal failure, yeah hundred percent agree on all thosepoints. Ken Burns documentaries are fantastic. I definitely agree with that,and I also agree that you know in my world, like disingenuous things areresulted in loss of money or time they haven't resulted in losses of life, butthat certainly is a real thing and you know it's a real thing in theautomotive roll, the error space world or obviously, military and governmentpolitics Yep. So Yep, okay, last question, so you know we're talkingabout you know or can burns? We've talked alot about large engineering. Moon shots talk a little bit. I know you're bigfan of...

...science fiction. One thing: I've alwayswondered looking at the world science fiction, whether it's like I don't knowthe Matrix or going all the way back to space, Odyssey art, informed science, science in formsart. What's your view on which is leading the other. I mean, certainly Ithink, there's a bit of both right. It's a bit of a feedback lot, but myfeeling is that, like science fiction are generally informed science, youknow the most. The best example like the Massada example is a kind of startrack and you look at like flip funds and disc drives, and I pass and likeall kinds of stuff that was around you know in the s o n star, track episodes,and I also think, like the freedom of of art, aren't as a visual Medi Anyway,since we're talking about movies or books. I guess really, but especiallywith like the digital age of like stuff, that a possible to be envisioned andlike people are really being able to bring their kind of dreams to a realitylike a visual reality of like really drive. Inspiration, maybe like theexact thing, is impossible or whatever is a far fetch, but it can inspireideas in the real world, and I think that, like we've talked a little bit about thisearlier, but the ability to like take solutions that are designed for onething over here and left field and apply them in new and novel ways is areally awesome way to generate new products and new progress on areas thathaven't been achieved before. And it's a lot easier than invent thing here onthe Gat Yard, but I think that, like science fiction, whether it'sliterature or film, whatever can inspire those types of kind of cross,pollinated thinking and generate some real world change- yeah. No, I thinkyou see over and over in the best science fiction or an element of greatscience fiction, that design thinkers are now untethered by engineeringrealities you know, and so, when it's in a book or on TV or movie like it,doesn't actually have to function in real life. You know it just has to besomething that like optically, is interesting and compelling and makesense. You know to look at whether or not like it has the computing power tobe able to. You know the competing power if mors law has caught up withthe thing, yet that's irrelevant through the lens of of Science Fiction,which I think is what makes it an intriguing category well Mir Luke will how we are out oftime today. But I want to thank you for coming on. I'm very excited to have youas the CO host for future episodes and yeah thanks for being here, absolutelyit's a pleasure to be here and I look forward to both be or Kodos and runningvery getting this thing off the grom luke thanks for being here, you shouldn't have to worry about IOTprojects dragging on or unreliable vendors. You've got enough on yourplate. The right team of Engineers and project managers can change a pivotalmoment for your business into your competitive edge. Various close knitcrew of ambitious problem, solvers,...

...continuous improvers and curiousbuilders know how to turn your ideas into a reality on time and up to yourstandards, with a focus on mitigating risk in maximizing opportunity willhelp you build an io t solution that you can hang your hat on. Let's bringyou our Iot idea to life, learn more. It very possible you've been listening to over the air,io t connected devices and the journey, if you enjoy to day's episode, makesure to hit subscribe in your favorite podcast player and give us a rating.Have a question or an idea for a future episode. Send it to podcast at verypossible com, see you next time I.

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