The OG of IoT: A Chat w/ Rob Tiffany (Part 1)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There are a select few who were there at the dawn of IoT. 

Rob Tiffany, VP & IoT Intrapreneur at Ericsson, is one of those. 

In fact, Rob is known for showing up in the monumental stages of the IoT evolution and transitioning into the behemoth that it is today.

Our conversation is so jam-packed with IoT insights that we had to separate it into two parts. In part one, Rob discusses the early days of IoT—pre-cloud, pre-sophisticated development tools, pre-wireless data networks—and weighs the cost and value sides of IoT.

We discuss:

  • The inventive spirit of the early days 
  • The current state of consumer IoT
  • Why the value of industrial IoT lies in moving users from guessing to knowing
  • What the future holds for automation and the workforce

Mentioned during the podcast:

Stay tuned for Part 2 of our conversation with Rob. Never miss an episode of Over The Air by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Because the vision for iote is tensof billions of devices, a multivariate system, analytics, pattern matching rules and thenlater on ml and things like that where it's appropriate, and then makingdecisions on its own. You're listening to over the Air Iot connected devices andthe journey brought to you by vary. In each episode we have sharp,unfiltered conversations with executives about their IOT journeys, the mistakes they made, the lessonsthey learned and what they wish they'd known when they started. Welcome backto over the Air IOT connected devices in the journey. My name is Ryanprossers, CEO vary, and today we're joined by Rob Tiffany, vice presidentand head of strategy at Ericson and Executive Director at Moab Foundation. So thoseare official designations, but unofficially, for those who know, rob is sortof the og of the Iot space and today we are going to get intoit. Rob, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for having me. Ryan. It's good to be here. Man. So, rob you've gotthis huge presence in the IOT space. You've been around, you know,you sort of like the forest gump of iote. At all the pivotalmoments in all the pivotal places. For those that aren't as familiar, canyou give us a little bit of background on, you know, your careerarc and then let's get into Moab and Eric's in a little bit? Absolutely. Yeah, I've totally been hanging out with forest and Lieutenant Dan this wholetime, dude. So yes, going back to the on of time,in the S is when I kind of got started doing this IOT stuff.It was after I got out of the military I joined a start up calledreal time data. What a unique name that is, and the whole ideawas monitoring vending machines wirelessly. And so this was back in the mid S. Like I remember Windows Ninety five coming out at that time frame. Sothat's kind of my frame of reference. They're right, so earliest days ofthe Internet being open to the rest of the world and not just our ponetteand stuff like that, and it was like how are we going to havemachines talk to us? You know, the original idea was, let's wehave route drivers who deliver products to fill up vending machines and they have routesand they drive around a city. So they mindlessly get in trucks and withcandy and drinks to go fill the machines and we're like, you know,I bet you if the machines told us their inventory wirelessly or over the Internet, that could we could optimize things. And so it was kind of asimple thing there. And so I'm just a kid. They're at work inwith a bunch of really rocket science guys, like literally the guys who created theblack box where aircraft, all these RF engineers. You could imagine whenyou're starting and you're having to invent everything yourself, like every aspect. Whenwe think of all the stack the things that go into doing an IOT solution, can you imagine if you had to invent every bit of it from scratchbecause it hadn't been done before? And so, literally we're inventing wireless modemsto send packets over like these community business radio towers, like four hundred andfifty mega hurts towers by Hook or by Crook. It wouldn't like you hadsome big cellular data networks back then. Right, we had people who aredoing firmware, you know, black boxes inside a vending machine, connected thecables, finding out how the inventory is going, how much money it's makingand then stuff running on a PC of graphical interface that look just like you'relooking at a vending machine and seeing the current inventory. And so I learnedso much from that experience, just being the stupid kid on the team andlearning from all these gray beards who basically taught me everything I know about beinga software engineer, about large scale architecture, and so it also gives you perspectiveas you move forward when you do something, you know, we didn'tknow what we were doing then. We just had a use case. Right, we're just solving a problem and we're using a series of technologies to solveit. Right, one of the things you learned was, oh, youknow, having efficient packets turns out to be a thing, because we hadto pay by the bite by back then, and so you're bittencoding your packets,you know, doing the exord and...

...all that fun stuff to make everythingefficient, because it really cost a lot of money back then. It's notlike things are today. And so as you progress forward and you have that, we raised a bunch of money and you know that company that lived oninside another bigger vending company actually these days, but that's where you got my startand you learned the importance of wireless connectivity. One of our founders,I don't know if a lot of people know this, one of the peoplewho backed US financially was my cost cellular, and so for those who don't knowwhat that cry, mccause like one of the pioneers in the wireless industry. A lot of the stuff happened in the Pacific northwest. So my CossetEli was the first nationwide cellular network in the United States. You know itas atnt wireless today, though, and so that's what all that became andthey backed us and because we were pushing the envelope on what could be done. And so you know how you hear lots of people talk about Iot orthe first utterances of that or when we got together. Didn't happen until sometime after two thousand that's just total crap. We were doing that stuff early,early days, and it was bleeding edge and we were definitely bleeding alot, but it was it was a lot of fun and it's set yourselfon a trajectory. As things get more sophisticated, as tool sets and stacksand things that you might use to build solutions get more sophisticated over time.It seems new to other people, but you had to invent the whole thing. And so like when I think about when I relate it to my experiencestoday, Iot just seems mindlessly easy because it's effortless. We didn't have clouds, we didn't have sophisticated development tools, we didn't have all that stuff.We didn't have great data networks everywhere. So did that. You know,wrote the wireless wave. You know, did a mobile device management start upin the early two thousands. You know, like if you think of Air Watchor mobile iron or things like that, black beerying a price server. Sohad that. had a good exit there and then went to work forMicrosoft and if anybody rumors windows mobile or windows phone, if you ever hada phone with the tiles on it, that was me. And so thatwas great being on that team and building an operating system and technology for smartphones. I think we did better when it was just us and blackberry. Obviouslywe got our ass kicked later on by the IPHONE. It happened. WasRight and say it, but yeah, you know, it happens. That'slife, right, you know. And so you had good times and thenyou had to get really thick skin as people are shooting arrows at you.I used to do the majority of all our executive briefings for mobility and Iended up doing the same thing for I t at Microsoft. So this bigexecutive briefing center and executives from all over the planet or flying into Seattle everyweek, and so I would do the talk about mobile and went from earlydays of being yeah, this is amazing, we're going to change our business withthis too. I can't believe I'm going to use this thing in myenterprise. You know, as soon as the iphone came along, it wasno pointo for us. was there a moment that, if you could goback mentally into your windows mobile journey, you were like, okay, thatwas the point at which we sealed our fate, as you know, ableto be overtaken by IOS. You know, was there like a fundamental decision youmade early on and he's okay. Later, looking back, he said, wow, that was not the correct decision based on the way technology evolved. Yeah, you know, a lot of people said, oh, Microsoft'slate because they think of windows phone that came out in two thousand and tenwith the tiles. But we're actually really early. You know, we hadcreated something called an embedded operating system back in ninety six, called windows seeand that you used to build industrial stuff. We built the SUCKET PC on topof that, which was a competitor to the palm pilot in the Sand then blackberry. Before they were phones, they were two way pagers with textand stuff like that, and so we were competing in that space andthat evolved into a phone. And so early days that first phone grew outof the pocket pc and we were kind of using some of the windows ninetyfive metaphors for the user interface onto phone because we didn't know what we didn'tknow, and so we evolved. You know, when the IPHONE came outearly on, and you know Steve Bomber said some ridiculous stuff about how itwas so expensive, it didn't even have...

...a keyboard. A lot of ourdevices had keyboards, just like the blackberries people. You know, we hadgreat success. We sold lots of phones in those days. It took about, I know, three years before iphones shipping volume finally matched where we were. We were super focused on the enterprise because, and that's where everybody wasbetween us and blackberry. We were focused on email, exchange, server,push email. He's to be a big thing for some reason. Encryption,device management, all that stuff. And iphone could care less about the enterpriseand they went directly after the consumer. You know, apples like, whocares about the enterprise? Consumers way bigger. And so we fight. We triedmultiple times to launch something called Windows Mobile Seven. I got prototypes showinguser interfaces. You can't believe that. We never saw the light of day, though, and then we kept blowing up teams. New Executives would comein, we try something, they get their heads chopped off. A newteam would come in, we'd shoot them in the head. Finally had agroup and then we launched the thing with the tiles, the live tiles,which ultimately inspired windows eight, and then the tiles you see on the startmenu and windows ten. All that came from all our design work, fromwindows phone seven, as we called it, and so we were late to theparty in as terms as far as a consumer device and trying to pivotfrom enterprise to consumer. And so when we launched that consumer device with tiles, yeah, it was beautiful. We got like great reviews. We didn'thave a lot of time to move over all the enterprise features into it.I don't know if it would have mattered or not. And so it waslike an empty shell of a device. It was pretty, it had abrowser, you could do email and some aps, not a lot, andso all of a sudden the enterprises said this phone's crap. You lost allyour enterprise tech, your security, your manageability, that kind of stuff.In the meantime, you know, obviously apple wasn't sitting still. Then androidwas launched, you know, with the first HTC devices. HTC was ourprimary partner through that whole time. They were Odim that kind of white labeleddevice has for us and a lot of mobile operators. And then I thinkthey saw the light with android and so they created like the earliest android devices. In fact, all people don't remember HTC was actually the leader in theandroid space for quite a while before Samsung finally surpass them with the galaxy devices. I think we just didn't get consumer quick enough. We had some peoplethat got it and we were just such an enterprise focus business and I thinkthat's and so we dragged our feet. We tried to come back. Weacquired no Kias handset business. One of our guys, Steven elop, hewas leading office. He left Microsoft and and up be going the CEO ofNokia. And you know a lot of people don't remember. You know thesame question you're asking me. As you know, winded windows phone or windowsmobile start to die and realize there was a turning point. Nokia had iteven bigger reckoning than we did. Nokia used to own the entire phone marketcompletely. No one was even close. And I remember Steven eelop when hetakes over at CEO and he's standing on stage doing his first presentation and heshows a picture of a oil drilling platform in the Gulf of Mexico on fireand he's like, Nokia is a burning platform. We're dying and we gotto start over fast. And so, however you want to catch it.We made a deal with them, actually made a deal before we bought them, where they would adopt windows phone as their primary operating system. They wereusing something called Symbian that both Nokia and Ericson were using back then, andso they went all in with our stuff. Nokia made beautiful devices, we gotsome market share, but you know, it just was never enough. Andthen, you know, by the time, you know, bomber leftand Satia and Nadella took over, satia just he was not into the phonespace at all. He thought we were just probably throwing good money after baddown a hole, and so he was the one who pulled the plug onthe whole phone deal completely and shut down the business, kind of around thesame time as the surface line for Windows was starting to come up and starthaving success. And so so there you have it. Of course, nowthe surface duo is this hinge device out...

...there that of course it's based onandroid. So yeah, maybe Microsoft will be back in that space just alittle bit, but not much. You know, enterprise focus. Actually,you you've got an entire chapter, you know, coming up in this narrativeabout Ericson but I want to pause and jump in. You know, whenyou got rob on the show, there really is no script. We're justgo in different directions and see where the wind blows. US. Talk tome about Consumer Iot. So you know Microsoft. You talking about Microsoft strugglingto like really get it right. Microsoft, course, massive company, unlimited resources. You know, they're struggling to get it right. I guess I'mtalking mostly about mobile. This is going to be a broadly consumer IOT question. But HTC, you know how to. They ran like hell for a minute. Blackberry was a giant player until they fizzled out, you know,colossally. Now they're a business case on its you know, of like whathappens when you talk about Nokia. You know you have to be a certainage, but if you are over forty, you owned a Nokia phone and sodid every one of your friends and like snake, was the honest mobilegame. Yeah, possible. And so talk to me about Consumer Iot.You know, at very we don't do a lot of consumer our view generallyis the consumer space is dominated by small number of people that have really deeppockets. They're very likely to do you know, a lot of those workthemselves and then you got a long tail of entrepreneurs and innovators trying to scraptheir way through it, figure it out. Hard hardware is hard. They're oftenunderfunded. What's your view on Consumer Iot? How, like pepper,a few La Followup questions, like how if someone's out there, they're workingout a small consumer Iot company right now. They're shouting at the radio. We'rehere, we're doing it you know, it's yeah, like, what doyou think these folks coming from this time at Microsoft, having taken somelumps here? Yeah, what's the future of the SMB Io, you know, consumer IOT space? Is there a glimmers of hope or their pockets?Are there things you would avoid at all costs? Yeah, I know it'sinteresting and also I don't want people to think that when we're talking about mobileit's unrelated to Iot, because we wouldn't have the sensor technology and low power, you know, micro controllers today if it wasn't for the driving force ofsmartphone revolution that made all that stuff not only possible but push the prices down. Because, you know, Iot came to life. Obviously we've been doingtelemetry and sending commands to machines for decades, but through proprietary methods. You know, what got Iot off the ground was certainly a perfect storm, andmaybe it was happening some people didn't even realize it was happening. Maybe thetwo thousand and ten time frame, where battery power was long enough, microcontrollers, the small arm devices, were powerful enough, sensors were cheap enoughand wireless, which also goes with mobile. But it we carried it over toIote. It became ubiquitous enough and cost effective enough where regular folks couldget involved in this, and so when you had that perfect storm to cometogether back then, you had a lot of people say, Oh my God, I'm going to jump into this. Obviously it was helped by McKenzie withtheir big report telling everyone that Iot was going to be an eleven trillion dollarmarket, and so everybody's like, Oh, I'm got to go after that bigbag of cash, and so people dove in. And you know what, to your point, they dove into consumer iote first, and so anybodywho was going to see us every year back in those days, all theway through, you know, the mid part of the last decade, mostof the iote startups that you would see at sees we're all consumer Iote,and people were launching they probably thought it was cool at the time, butthey were just stupid stuff. You know, your iote Coffee Pot, your iotetoaster, your iote basically, people took any consumer product that was outthere and plugged it in, and so...

...you had all these IOT devices thatwere doing stuff like that, thousands of them, and there's no money inthat space to begin with. Also, a lot of people didn't realize andyou still see this today. You know, there's the notion of there's the currentversion of the product, will say, like a doorbell, and then there'sthe iote, the ring or the other you know, there's a lotof other players that make those kind of things. Are Low and stuff likethat, and there's the Iot version of that same product and it's or fiveeggs whatever more expensive, sometimes ten x more expensive. And then, youknow, sometimes those devices die because the back end cloud goes away and thenyou spend a lot of money for something that doesn't actually do anything anymore.That's been that whole space there, and so you've had some breakout winners,for sure. You know who got acquired that. We're really narrowly focused.But yeah, you're right, most of these consumer things didn't fly. Andit also the ratio of the cost of the product to the cost of addingcompute storage networking to it. If what you're adding to it to make itan Iot version of the product, that think that stuff you're adding needs tobe less than one percent of the cost of the whole product. But peoplewere bolting on stuff that was a huge portion of the cost and it justblew out. You know, it was cool. There were early adopters,Geeks who thought that was cool, but the masses are like, I'm notpaying for that, you know, and so all that stuff died. Andthen I think, you know, maybe five or so years ago some peoplestarted to wake up and go, Huh, well, let's see, maybe Ishould follow the money. I think this industrial stuff is more important.The center price stuff is where the money's at, and it is right.Absolutely couldn't agree more. I've a follow up question. are like a redirect. So the total cost of the unit can't be more than one percent ofthe you know the IOT development work. Haven't heard that before. That's reallyinteresting. On the other sids, that's on the cost side, on thevalue side. One of the things that you've said before, or and youmentioned in the preeterview is Iote, is the difference between guessing and knowing,which is more on the value side. Talk talk about that and like yourview on you know, a good iote innovation takes you from guessing on athing to knowing on a thing. What that means to you, examples,etc. Well, you know, the good part is after the crash andburn of mobile. I spent the second half of my career building Azure atMicrosoft and then building as your Iote, and that's where I went. GotTo go revisit iote again and go deep and build a global iot platform andthen go to Hitachi and build Lu Mata, doing the industrial and living in factories. And so to your point, the guessing and knowing, if youthink about you're in a factory, you're building something on an assembly line.So much, and this spans lots of industries, but there's you know,we always hear terms like tribal knowledge or I've got a feel for things orwhatever. Or I do. We do routine maintenance schedules on whatever, thispiece of equipment or this thing, and everything we do. Or if I'mdoing agriculture, I'm gonna Water, I'm going to irrigate this field on acertain schedule. All of these decisions, these schedules, these things that we'redoing are they're based on a best guess, and I'm not saying they're just stabbingin the dark. It's based on past experience and they think, yeah, this is about what I should do. But you're always guessing. With iotenow those places, those things are actually telling you when it's time togo do main nuts or when it's time to get ready for maintance. Andso what I mean by that is if you've got a factory with industrial robotson an assembly line and they're instrumented, you know you've put your compute storageand networking, your software, your SDK, you're wiring in to all the sensorson that machine, whatever it happens to be, and it's constantly tellingyou it's health, it's performance, problems it's having. I'm totally all inwith digital twins from a long time ago, and so modeling subsystems in a machineto the whole machine and kind of...

...causal relationships when problems of subsystem canbubble up to bring down the whole thing. And so with Iot, the machinesare constantly telling you I'm okay or I'm not okay, or I'm wearingdown, I'm seeing you know, because there's certain things. You know,we all have knowledge of how machines were down and obviously common sense tells youanything with moving parts is going to wear down and fail eventually right over someperiod of time. You know, like your car. You got brakes.You're driving your car and then you start to hear a little kind of squealwhen you're putting on the brakes and that's your first syndicator that hey, sometimein the future something might go wrong, and then maybe you don't do anythingabout it, and later on you're hitting the brakes and you hear this grindingsound and then that guess what, that's a more expensive cost when you finallyfix it. That's Iot in a nutshell. That's Industrial Iot in a nutshell.Right there it instead, if you discovering it, sensors are knowing itearlier than the human knows about it. You know, obviously you get directfeedback when you're driving your car to go, Oh, crap, this is goingto cost me a lot of money. And so industrial iote is the samething. We're trying to avoid downtime, we're try doing to avoid an expensiverepair. If you get to things earlier, it's cheaper than if youwait later. Right. It's stuff like that. So that knowing allows youto make decisions to take things now these early days of Iote, you know, you see people building all these systems with dashboards and it's like homer Simpsonand a nuclear reactor looking at some big screen. No, I'm going todo something about it. Just think of that as sales crap and think ofthat as the early days of Iote, because the vision for iote is tensof billions of devices, a multivariate system, analytics, pattern matching rules and thenlater on ml and things like that where it's appropriate, and then makingdecisions on its own. People are not supposed to be involved in Iot atall. They are today there today because it's comfortable and we're actually no one'sreally doing big IOT yet, despite a lot of talk, and so youcould you still have people looking at dashboards and going, Oh, I seethis line here, maybe I should do something in the future. The reasonwhy built Lumata Tatachi. You know, your connect collect that data, analyze, drive insights and then take action. And so having those connectors, don'tbuild a new data Syloh, have connectors to all those other back end systems, other systems, a record that a customer may have, automation so thatdrive an insight and take connection on your own and automate that thing, becausein the future, the the Iot that we all think about, it'll beso big there's no one or group of people that could manage such a largesystem, and so we have to get really smart about managing and decisionmaking ona giant, multivariate system. Let's pull on the human thread here a littlebit. So the one thing you and I've talked about before is this,you know, potential pitchfork moment where, you know, jobs have been replacedinnovation, iote, automation, you know, are viewed as even more existential toperhaps like a working class of people, or maybe not a working class,maybe people that are thought of, as you know, white color jobs. What's your thought on you know, the pace of innovation appears to beaccelerating. Iote, I think, is primed to have a moment if theworld will allow it to not get in the way in the S, youknow. But like fast change that comes at the expense of humans and theirjobs, these things are occasionally they get torched with actual torches. Yeah,so you know, thoughts on that? Talk to me about life in twothousand and twenty five. You know, do you think that we're looking ata growing group of people who are maybe not at all fans of the IOTE? Yeah, there's always going to be people are not fans of just automationin general right the fact that we a lot of people don't realize this,so they just don't think about it. When I say the word factory,we have reason. We have factories all over the world to make things.That's actually an example of automation. Before...

...that, people built everything by hand. A factory is a form of automation, and so when you're a part ofa factory and you think I've got my stable factory job for life,you just have it for a period of time. Now, there's no doubtabout it. In the past the pace of innovation was slow enough that youcould graduate from college, or not just get out of high school and havea diploma and get yourself a good job and you might work that job foryour whole life, until you retire, because the pace of innovation was slowenough that it wasn't going to get disrupted. Obviously, things have been snowballing.Technology just keeps doubling and tripling, you know, rapidly. When allof a sudden, if when you look at pictures, like whenever you seea photo of the Giga factory, you know for Tesla, and there's likeno one in the factory or there maybe there's one guy you know that probablystrikes fear in a lot of factory workers, for instance, and there's all kindsof jobs where that happens to and it's not just like when you hearAi's coming for your job, your white collar job. It spans all kindsof things and obviously we're doing it to ourselves, right, but we've alwaysdone this. We have always done this. We're just doing it fast and we'vedone it before. And so you could see on rest. We've seenunrest in weirdness happening just during covid right, Gosh, weird stuffs happening right noweven you know, people are losing their jobs. People lost their jobs. Why would you have people talking about things like universal basic income if peopleon a wide scale did and realize that we're headed for some weird times?We're human brains are not going to be able to keep up, not.And you know what, we're all created equal, but we're not all goingto have equal outcomes. Everybody's also unique and different and some people have morecapacity to learn, to get smarter and keep up with the changes than others. Right, and that's just the way it is. You know, Ioften say we're all created equal, but it doesn't stay that way for verylong, you know it just like you have two automobiles, two cars,identical cars off the lot. One of them, the owner invests in itheavily aftermarket upgrades and things like that. The other one, you know,never gets oil changes, has the squeaky breaks like you were talking about,and those two cars are just not equal. The just not equal. You know, I don't know. It's a fallacy to think that it's different forpeople. Anyway, we could talk about this for ages. Last question apartone of our chat with Rob Tiffany. Will have more in part two ofthe interview in the next couple of weeks. You know, you, like Isaid, you've got a big media footprint out there, or social mediafootprint. Where do you point people ask? So, for people that want tofollow rob, maybe they're here and you for the first time today.They like what you're throwing down. We're some good places to follow the ROBTiffany Story. Sure. Well, certainly linkedin and twitter. That's lowhanging fruit. I've got us, RUB tiffany. Digitalcom got some stuff out there.Youtube. Gosh, I probably created seventy or eighty different I team minute videos. Back when I had to teach the Hitachi sales force how to sell Iot, I created these bitesides videos to teach them all the little elements that IOTkind of little small segments to make it digestible, so you can talk intelligentlyto customers, right. And then Iot coffee talk, Gosh, you know, that's me and a couple of industry analysts, and then three of usare actually inventors of some of the most successful IOT platforms in the world,and so we do a talk. It's like an hour or so every Wednesdayand and that's up on Youtube and also on different podcast platforms as well,and that's a totally irreverent fun thing. It's great having someone like Rick Beulatawho invented thing works and obviously he just doesn't care what anybody thinks, whichmakes it deciding. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, all right, folks.So if you want to keep up with rob it sounds like you gota lot of opportunities, twitter and linkedin being to the more obvious ones,but there's a lot of content out there. He's got other podcast episodes and aseparate podcast where you can check him out. Rob, thank you somuch for being on the show today.

Thanks for having me. It's agreat talking to you all. Right, folks, that's it for today.I did get in a little bit of trouble for my outro last time,so I'd like to retract my previous statement. We do care about your ratings.Please subscribe to the podcast. I know I said both. Subscribe ifyou want or don't. I'm officially retracting that. If Rob's looking at melike buddy, what did you do? So yeah, we would love yoursupport. This is how we grow the show. If you have an ideafor an episode or guess that you think would would make a fantastic guest withthe show, please email us podcast at very possiblecom thanks for listening it willsee you on the Internet. You shouldn't have to worry about IOT projects draggingon or unreliable vendors. You've got enough on your plate. The right teamof Engineers and project managers can change a pivotal moment for your business into yourcompetitive edge. Varies. Close Knit crew of ambitious problem solvers, continuous improversand curious builders know how to turn your ideas into a reality. On timeand up to your standards, with a focus on mitigating risk and maximizing opportunity. Will help you build an Iot solution that you can hang your hat on. Let's bring your Iot idea to life. Learn more at very possiblecom. You'vebeen listening to over the Air Iot connected devices and the journey. Ifyou enjoyed today's episode, make sure to hit subscribe in your favorite podcast playerand give us a rating. Have a question or an idea for a futureepisode? Send it to podcast at very possiblecom see you next time.

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