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Jumping Into the Ring w/ a Punchable Computer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Typical hardware devices aren’t designed to withstand getting punched repeatedly every day. One reason is most hardware isn’t meant to be punched. Another reason is it’s pretty hard to develop hardware for that purpose.


In this episode, Jeff Morin, CEO and Founder at Liteboxer, discusses how his team tackled the challenges of creating a home boxing hardware platform that gamifies the workout experience.


Topics covered:

- Developing hardware in the consumer space

- Strategies for raising capital

- Leaving room for iteration

- Determining core competencies and finding the right team


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Anytime harder is involved, make sure that you got a good, good playbook and plan in place, because a dollar today could end up causing you ten or hundred dollars tomorrow for every mistake. You are listening to over the Air Iot connected devices and the journey brought to you by vary. In each episode we have sharp, unfiltered conversations with executives about their IOT journeys, the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned and what they wish they'd known when they started. Welcome back to over the Air IOT connected devices in the journey. My Name Is Ryan and today we're joined by Jeff Moren, CEO and Co founder of light boxer, and we're going to be talking about the unique challenges behind building a punchable hardware computer. Jeff, thanks for being on the show. Thanks for having me. Great to be here. So right off the Bat, let's address some of the confusion behind what in the world does it mean to be building a punchable computer? Key, tell us about light boxer, what you guys are doing and yeah, just give us a little bit of background. Sure, yeah, it's a light box. Are It's we packed a lot of technologies and at home fitness product. But basically we're sitting at the crossroads of fitness, music and gaming. And so what light boxer is? Is it this hardware that delivers workouts similar to having a sparring partner in your home. So there's a shield with a bunch of sensors on it and over two hundred led lights that show you when and where to punch. And so what we're trying to do is fuse a bunch of elements of gaming. So you think of like what makes gaming so addictive and what makes it fun in something that you want to do when you're when you're at home and chilling out, and then fuse that with fitness, which we all know it's healthy but sometimes sucks, and putting those two together to get this fusion that delivers. I call it like the sport mentality. Right, what makes something so fun that you want to do with your buddies and do it for a couple hours a day or whatever? And that essentially we're trying to hack people's brain so that they make working out a habit in something that they actually want to do. So we've we use boxing as our core modality, because boxing is one of the best workouts per unit time. You have to pay attention or else you're going to get a punch in the face in the real world. So with with light boxer, time kind of just melts away and you you really lean into the music and we especially in our programming, music is everything. We have a unique partnership with Universal Music Group where we're allowed to use any of their music and everything that is done on light boxer is to the beat of songs and it's all stuff you hear on the radio. It's the newest stuff that's out there that's dropping every week. And then we fuse that and we put choreography behind the workouts, whether it's a trainer led workout...

...where the trainer showing you when and where to punch, how to stand, giving you tips and kind of motivating you, or the other way we can work out with people is through quick play and in that mode, which is very unique to like boxer, you can actually select the song that you want to to box to and then you get scored on your timing and accuracy and force and you can use that to kind of challenge friends and challenge the community and it's definitely an additional layer that allows people that more freedom of choice and more interactivity. So I follow up question for you. We've gotten really familiar with you guys as product, huge fans. I think what you guys have built is really cool. If you're listening out there, take a look the way that they've built lights and music into it. I think is a very interesting product. But one of the things that we hear a lot on consumer grade hardware is the size of the investment. Even if people think they understand up front, it's probably beyond even that. If you were to go through, like if you were to sit down with someone and they were saying, Hey, Jeff, I'm considering I've got this idea, we've got a prototype, were about to take it to the next level. Like what are some things that you think somebody, that a person, should be thinking about before embarking on developing a hardware product in the consumer space? Yeah, so with hardware specifically, I think it's a totally, a totally different game. You'll hear, you know, the the overplayed hardware is hard mantra. But like it really is, because you must plan way far in advanced like there's a lead time to every segment within the supply chain and basically like, unlike software assass product, where you can just like your users can be your testers and you can cut stuff up and in change change code that changes looker feel overnight. With hardware you are making decisions for months or sometimes years down the line that will affect your user. So there's way more, I'd say, planning, and definitely more planning involved, and capital as well. That needs to get tied up right. So with hardware there's tooling investments, you have to understand the supply chain and logistics. That might not be as clear or simple as you might think. So I think making sure that you have this product market fit, which is super important, and that you understand the needs of your customer beforehand is really important, and then allowing yourself room like so we're we have software that runs on our hardware. So any of our shortcomings we want to make sure that we can we still have that quick turn software side that we can we can change stuff on later on. But in general I just say any time hardware is involved, make sure that you got a good a good playbook and plan in place, because a dollar today could end up causing you ten or hundred dollars tomorrow for every mistake. I want to unpack that, that playbook idea, and also talk about the fund raise process.

I we that is a brutally difficult process. I we hear it all the time at very you know, we're only dealing with companies on the other side of having done it, so we only talk to the folks that have had had a successful outcome, but we hear about the process. I know that only a small fraction of VC's are interested in that space. Can you talk about your journey a little bit and and what it was like to raise funds versus you know, I'm sure you have friends that started sass companies. They've met with, you know, probably a small fraction of the number of venture capitalists and got more money much more easily like. What was it like for you? For me, I was actually really fortunate my cofounder, Todd Dagress, he's he is a VC guy. He started spark capital, which is very successful Boston based VC company. So he he kind of already had a playbook and I'd say he was the founder who had the finance and backing side down already, and he reached out to me as like the tech guy, saying like Hey, I have this idea, let's build it. And so I like over the past for five years, I've been able to learn, learn in front of from one of the greats, and he's kind of shown like hey, we got to like figure out that product market fit. Like let's make some let's make some stuff, let's throw some Spaghetti on the wall, see what sticks and then put that back in the pot and like make more of it and more of it and and refine this idea. And as you were building light boxer, it was definitely it was one of the most organic product of developments that I've ever been a part of, because we were trying to meet this need where todd was taught, is actually a boxer and he tried doing it at home when he's it sucked and he's like there's got to be something better and like what makes working out fun? We kept adding these layers of motivation on top of each other and that kind of guided US along this path of what we're building today. But we didn't have a vision of light boxer as it is, like this is what it's going to be, this is what it's going to come out to be. And when you don't have a super clear vision. You can, you can spend money and burn money really fast, right, like if you just said, like I think this is just what should be, let's kick off tooling and do it, that's not good. That's not the right path. So what we did was very nimbly and and conservatively, like built prototypes, tested them out, made sure it worked. It felt right and, like you know, you, Bryan, you're always talking about like that sparkle and or like the intensity spark when your eye, like when you have a user step on and like you have that Aha moment. That's what you're looking for, and it doesn't come right away right. It takes it takes some time, and I think we were able to find that in a few different places, which is when we really knew we had something special. Do you think that, you know, you've mentioned a lot in the pre interview and then again today, this relationship with your partner Todd, and that that gave you some pretty big tail...

...winds? So, like when that you're back in the fundraising process, would you discourage, do you think, someone from developing a consumer hardware product if they did not have pre existing relationships? Do you think you got you would have been successful if you would have needed to go start this from scratch. The fundraise sign. Yeah, I think. I definitely think it can be done. Like people do it all the time and there's a lot of tools out there to help write. Like I'm hy combinator, for example. They have like amazing, amazing guides on like how do you raise capital, like where do you find these angels? Same thing with like kickstarter in indiegog. I like, I know, like a lot of people have been burned by those, but it's also a great way to like test the product market fit and make sure that people are vibing with your idea, right. Like my friend just launched this measurement tool. It's called recon tools, and he did that on kickstart, an indigo go. Matrede a great following and then and then he got the capital to create that the tooling that he needed, right, and he kind of like brought his most excited users through this journey of him building it. And those, like those people who backed him are like going to be super enthusiastic, right, they're not. They, like I believe in this idea and I want to see it success. So I've done I've done kickstarters in the past for other ideas and stuff, and so it definitely can be done. There's also like not being a shame to like ask friends and family for money. Like it's a tricky it's definitely a tricky place. You want to make sure that you should not just like taking advantage of folks, but also like that both sides are making out in the deal right. So when you're ready to go there, it's always an option and something to consider, for sure. Yeah, I think the the friends and family round is really hard for a lot of people. In fact, I think if it's not hard for you, that is its own signal, like you may not be taking it seriously enough, but you might be an asshole. Yes, you might be. You might be an asshole if you are, you know, taking much like your parents. I think a lot of parents are like willing to write off a k one time thing, like okay, Jeff had an idea, we took the shot whatever. But Man, when you get into like the ants and uncle's and kind of the like outer perimeters of your they are not going to easily forget the time that they put fifty. Like you're going to be hearing about that for many thanksgivings and I when I talk with entrepreneurs, you know, I'm like, do not go out to a friends and family round until your game is really tight, because it's not that the the the funds are difficult to raise. They may be difficult, but that's not the point. It's that, like you will see these people for the rest of your life and you want to make sure that you took the best shot you could possibly dodd everything you could to de risk this thing and hit it hard, because for a lot of people like you, can only do a friends and family round just that one time, you know,...

...and then the combination of like shame and fundraising fatigue really does not set up for like a fresh round. If you did return the first round. Did did you guys do a friends and family round at light boxer it so todd. I mean he's well connected. So like we brought in some other investors that he had had participated in another companies with him before. So I'd say my friends and family were not as influentialle but and now you guys are. You guys are wildly successful now. So now the friends and families going the other way and they're saying, Hey, where was my opportunity to invest in this. Why didn't you? Are you? Have you had some of that? I've had high school friends like, Hey, man, I wanted to put some money in. Like why didn't I get want I get to do it. You never give you that chance. But yeah, like it's the same thing, like hiring families. Like how do you fire? Like it's not about the hiring. Sure, I give anyone in job, but then when you're like okay, now we need to can't fire your family, right. So you don't want to let them down. So, yeah, I agree with you hundred percent. You want to make sure that it's rock solid and that you're ready. You're ready. Yeah, that. But the the family thing is really interesting, and now we're totally off script. So about you know, at very that was a mentality shift that we had to make culturally. was like stopping saying this phrase. You know, we're like a family, because it's true. You really cannot fire family. Can't fire your mother, you can't fire your father, you know, as much as you might want to, I don't know. I guess maybe Britney Spears is actively trying to and if you're listening to this too far in the future, that's a funny joke in July, two thousand and twenty one. Let's see how I don't know that will be at all funny in a few months, but it's funny now. And you know, we really think of it and talk about it more as a tribe and this idea that people have a specific job and that like they are part of a community and we viewed as an important community and we take our community seriously. But you know, people are there's a requirement that they be great at the the task that they do. They're the thing that they do within our tribe. Is that? Like did you guys get into some trouble in the early days, like it was this family thing, a lesson you had to learn by touching the stove and burning your hand, or like how did you get to this place at light, boxer? I don't think it's. We don't. I think it's is a personal thing, like you said, like I wouldn't want to have to fire my brother, and I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. Like there's like I tried. Everyone has a role a family. You can just be a brother and right, yeah, you're gonna like eat my your mother will always love you. But that's not how it works. When, like, when there's money on the table and you have to you know, you have to get returns for those people that like believed in you and put put money in. It's not about it's not about handouts, it's about producing something that is is of value. So let's talk about the most important thing, the holy grail every tech company is constantly searching for and and,...

...if they have it, fighting to maintain elusive product, market fit. So, if you're if you're hearing this for the first time, first of all, welcome to technology companies. Product, markeet fit, in my view, is more important than everything else combined. If you have it, nothing else matters, and if you don't have it, nothing else matters. Can you talk about in a consumer hardware product? You talked a minute ago about like the sparkle, like you're iterating, iterating, iterating, until you like deliver that sparkle moment for the user. What did that look like for light boxer? And feel free to like share some of the stories of I don't know what's the opposite of sparkled dead eyed user feedback? Okay, this does not do it for me. You know, what did you guys get wrong? What did it start to look like as you were getting it right over to you? We definitely had a lot of black luster moments with especially my wife, can attest spells there can be so honest. I mean it's like that. They're a critical part of the whole process, but it's also brutal in the moment. Oh yeah, so I'd say like early on we knew we wanted music and we knew we wanted like this thing you punched, like when you think of boxing, the first thing you think of is a heavy bag, right, like and that we have other competitors that have stuff that's heavy bag bits. But we found like we were trying to wrap electronics and like sensors and stuff onto a heavy bag and that was difficult for UN a few reasons. The shape is like you don't see like computers. Again, going back to punching computers, you don't see many like circular computers. But also, just to be able to do that, there's a lot of a lot of things you have to do in manufacturing processes, whether it's special connectors or special PCBA's, and for us, for a product that you're punching all day and various degrees. Product Riolo. Reliability is like core ten at number one right. You need to make sure we hit that right. So I'd say another thing was like that the idea of sport that I talked about earlier and like feeling that like what we have this thing called the flow state. We're trying to get our users to the flow state and that's where your ability meets the challenge that's presented. And when you get that right and you're like you're you feel like you're in the zone and you're like skating and having its good vibe, like that moment is a spark in its own and so early on we have like we had lights that were flashing to the beat of the music, but there it was hard to like get to that, that flow state, because there was no way to like practice and get better. It was more reactionary, like how quick can you move and like react to those lights and flashing, even though there's stink sync to the beat of the music. It was hard to describe. So when we came up with the ideas of like these runway lights that show you when and where to punch, now there's some skill behind it and that's where like that was like one of the first Aha moments we had, like we can make this more sport like, just like you practice or you can see someone coming down the court and you know...

...where to go next. That's what kind of like those lights are doing for our users, and it's like just like a sparring partner telling you, calling out where to punch and stuff. So, say, that was a big moment. And then, like, I'd say one of the biggest like sparkle moments for me, it was like we went to a video game conference actually packs East and Boston. We had to very early prototype light boxers and we were in the section and called the Indie Mega booth, which is basically where like people who make video games at home, like my display some stuff, or indie developers, and so here we are across from Oculus and in Nintendo and Sony and everyone in. Like we had these two light boxers and people came there dressed up in cosplayoff. It's like Mario and Luigi and princess peach coming down to punch this thing, and they did not come to work out, they came to play like fun video games, and we like got a couple people on their blasts and some music and they like you could see, they put the gloves on. They it sparkles in their eyes. They started punching this thing. They get back right, back in line. They wanted to do it again and again and it was so cool because like again, like these people didn't come to work out, but they were just like this feel so good. I like I'm excited to be like standing moving and it was like it was clicking with them. You will not see me and many photos there because I was under the table slaughtering the device as they were, as people were punching up. I remember like I'd like I'd hear some big dude like start smashing the prototype and I'd be like, Oh Gosh, I got a sawder another one beside, say for like four days I learned. I got really up to my soltering skills in terms of for for fixing these things. But that was super cool and it like, I think, for both taught and myself, that was like our actual like this we've hit product market fit like these customers who you never think we called. We actually call them in our own decks the uninspired right people who don't work out every day. Maybe they go for they say they go for a run once a month or something. But like if we can make something that these guys want to use, then people who actually do want to work out, like they're going to love it even more. Right. So that was definitely the biggest Aha moment and like kind of guided a lot of our decisions from there in terms of like where we went next with the product and the programming. Yeah, it's funny the like how product market feel, eels it are when you when you hit that fit moment, you know we're really clicks that you can hear an audible like clicking into place. It feels a little bit like a concert, like a party. You know, things feel light, they just work and you're end and just like a party, especially if you're hosting the party, is a lot of shit going wrong behind the scenes, you know, like the kit you know you're trying to like get the food out on time and do the whatever. And then how it looks often is also as you described, like people are really engaging with the thing and what you're hearing a...

...lot is I can't get this anywhere else. This does a thing for me that nothing else does for me, because if they're like hey, this is just like x, but it's less expensive. Like that's cool, but now you're kind of in a different game. Now you're it's like a cost competitiveness game. But you know what the really powerful product, Ma get fit is often like I'm getting a thing or experience that I cannot get any other way, and I can see that with your product. So you guys are obviously a hardware product. You take software incredibly seriously and you've created some skills or around music and lighting and so forth, and so I have some core competency questions in a second, but for now talk about like leaving yourself the room to make iterations as you learn. So you shift a million units or whatever and you learn some that. Like how do you what does it look like to for company that got a ship hard were cannot easily ship updates, and yet you want to leave yourself room like meaningful upgrade paths in the future. How do you guys think about that? Like we're always listening to our users and we're getting feedback, like even at the end of a workout, yes, like did you like this, or where did you like? If you check out, where did you hear about this. But then we have like product managers on the team. They're actually calling our customers and like getting feedback of like what's your favorite thing about light box, or what's the thing you hate about it? Right, and like bringing up those like powerful emotions that can kind of guide what we're working on next. We have like a strong desire to be like a household, name, like Hey, I light box today, and like owning immersive fitness, and so it's like how do we do that? How do we like push the boundaries on what we're building to make sure that no one else can like step into our ring? No Pun intended, but but like basically saying, like how do we push our own boundaries to own like where we want to grow and like where we see the marketing ground going, and I think just like we change like the genres of music to meet our customers and who's purchasing like maybe our early customers really loved Bon jovie and ore at like later customers like a sap rocky way, more like right. So there's this alent's in terms of like how we meet the needs of everyone that you can't you try to serve a bunch of masters. You're not going to. You're not going to be the best at any one of them, right. So, like you have to pick a lane that you know you can own and that you know you can be the best at at. What's the saying? It's like being different. Is it always better? But the best is always different, right, so that there's a reason why there's something like that. There's a reason why the best is like the best, right. And so, like you have to own that lane and you might not be good at something, but you definitely stuff. That's a perfect segue to the last topic that I wanted to ask you about. It's...

...something that, like, we're really passionate about, it very and it's often the thing that people come to us to try to solve, for this idea of what I call the wrong side of impossible, you know. So to be different, technically different. So you're for your product to be technically different, you have to have solved something that started on the wrong side of impossible and you figured it out and your product is the thing that does the thing, and you know, because it's up impossible up to that point, like it's usually pretty hard. Have a lot of questions on this. But to start with, is there a problem that or problems that you feel like you guys had to address or have addressed that started on the wrong side of impossible. Yeah, I mean, I think going to that product reliability and like punching a computer screen, like like we wanted to make something that is durable, like the lat the last thing you want is like yeah, this same breaks because like that bad review early on is like the worst thing. It can like kill your company. So, like, as I was saying, I got with like the packs east where I was sawdering, like that sucks, but I definitely learned about how not to make the products. So I think you look at light boxing, you're like why does it look like this? Right, like wise it looks like something out of like an Alien Verse Predator Movie Sometimes, and I think like that's probably one of our biggest hurdles, is educating people like why it's better and why it looks the way it does. But a partner. The other part of that is like it does that to not because it just we think it looks cool, but it fills a reason of like having a curve circuit board. We are having a lot of like led's pop up pop off or like another reason another thing is like, oh, having a board with a bunch of connectors. You think like, okay, you have this repeating set six segments with like for sensors and a runway of led lights. You say. Any engineer would say, like, okay, you should just have like repeat that for economies of scale, six of them, and just have a connector where they all connect in. For us, we learned like, Oh, we need to make a giant PCBA, probably the biggest PCBA like I've ever seen here, like this is a giant board, and anyone be like, Yo, that's so dumb, like why would you make a board that big? That's a really expensive and it just like you could shrink it into like six segments. But we learned that connectors are really expensive and connectors are also like the most most likely place to fail, for sure. And so when you're developing the same we learned to stay away from that kind of stuff. And the same thing with the programming and the software. There's a lot of you think it should be done one way and then you just have to adjust. And so now and then we then we additional benefits, like punching a curved surface, maybe punching bags also we're trying to solve this single like how do you make something that someone could punch? And so they just like made a curds curve cylinder. Turns out like punching as curve surface is not really great for your wrists because,...

...like every punch, you kind of rolling. So for us now we have this benefit of like way less injuries and and it's it's much better punching experience, and we hear this from from some of the pro boxers that try it out as well. Wrong side of impossible. Got To have a strong team. You doing a thing, a hard thing, never been done thing, but you're also searching for product market fit at the same time, because you haven't quite landed there. It's elusive often in the early days. How do you how did you guys think about building out the core team? So you're saying, Hey, we think we're going to do something that looks and feels like this punch triuble computer that serves this boxing market. We're not exactly sure. We're music and lighting and these things fall and everything, but like broadly we have a pretty good idea. How did you guys think about core componencies, the core team versus okay, here's some areas that are very important, but we're not going to be excellent or we're not going to be able to be excellent. So we're going to find a strong partner in those areas. How did light boxers think about team in the early days and core company? Yes, I think so, team. You need to have a team you can trust, because you can't do everything until like I think we were taught and I were lucky because you're so different that we both fit. Like I kind of feel like puzzle pieces, like places. I'm I'm deficient. He like catches up and advice versa. So I think that was like having a strong cofounder and having like being able to form an a team early on. That also fits, right. So I'm a techi mechanical is my background. So like, obviously the first two next hires are like a software guy and an electrical engineer, right. And so building out a team to an areas that maybe you aren't so strong and but can trust other folks like kind of obvious, but at the same time, like looking at what are what is the product we're building? Right, so we're building a media company, because we have all the mark we have all this content and music and video of trainers and stuff. So that is one area that I have no experience in it. And then we also have, like we have the software, the software, there's three products, hardware, software and digital content. So like basically having leaders in each of those groups that own it. But then, like there are other places, like like we're like you're saying you have to lean on folks that maybe you can't even afford. So like we did a lot of contractors that we'd eventually hired and like so, for like our music attorney, for example, like she's she's an expert in navigating those kind of the landscapes of like not getting sued, right, just like finding people you can trust and these these things and saying, like okay, we like we can't afford you full time, but we'll hire you like ten hours a week or something, and we just need give us a roadmap that is smart and then we'll like we'll fill it in the best weekend. And so I think that's like a big thing that we did very numbly so that we didn't just...

...like burn all this money up front. We know we're no, we're deficient here. Will hire some contractors and make it work that way. One of the you know, interview a lot of people here on the program and one of the trends I've noticed as there's really two kinds of founders of hardware tech companies. One is very nose down focused on their own product. You know, the world could be blown up around them, and they're like light boxer, is where my hundred percent focus is. And then you have these like, I guess I will call them like industry enthusiasts, and they are very aware of the ecosystem and what other companies are up to and maybe they see people at trade shows and so forth and they say hey, you know, you know they know people in some of these adjacent spaces that also make consumer products. which would would you say, like how do you think about? How is Jeff Looking at the space? And if you're that you know, I guess, regardless of which type you consider yourself, is there a product or company you know in the consumer IOT world that you're a fan of out there that especially like bonus points if it's one nobody's talking about? I think I've more so. I think early on I was like the heads down, like the world could explode and like I was just like I have to build this thing, we have to get it out there, and I was just like thinking of tooling and all this like making sure we got it right. When we hit that like product market fit moment, like I had to switch gears and like I put my marketing cap on, and marketing is like the biggest spend by far. We want to be the company we know we can be, we have to like get out there in the wild, and so I've had to definitely switch my hats make sure that we're doing that, we're spending that money correctly. So it's definitely changed. I think as least we come out with other products. It will probably keep going back and forth and I hope that like my team can support that. Other products. I mentioned my my friends recon tools. He's got like this m one caliber, which is, I think was so the coolest thing. It's this this device that really it's like tape measures haven't changed forever and this is like a digital tape measure that goes on a minor saw and it's super cool and bringing technology to a space that it hasn't been super tech conscious. I guess like that kind of stuff hasn't changed a long time. So I think that kind of stuff and, as I mentioned, like he's he kind of bootstrapped it, did it through kickstarter and it's it's a really cool product, bigger company that I love and if I get made fun of a lot for talking about it, is like riobe tools, which is like, you know, they're not like it's not like you think like people are can be very snobby with their tools and like the wallt or Milwaukee guy or whatever, I like just having like a tool for any that moment when you like, Oh shit, I wish I had this tool, and so like they always are coming out with goofy...

...funny like different product lines. But the best thing is like the battery. The batteries that they have like all work across all the different tools and I ended up using a lot of their batteries on my kids like power wheels and stuff and like doing home projects with them and hacking them into stuff, and they just built so well. Like I can, instead of buying a new power of battery, I just like wired in like one of the eighteen volt batteries and then that that runs the kids power wheels and I can quickly swap them out. So I think it's like if Luke was on the show today. We do not recommend that you get into power tool battery packs and start the line. But yeah, so do walt users out there. You are on Nottice Riobe is hate. Hated, going to hate right now. The haters are going to hate because this for especially for certain type of Dad. You know, this is like a very passionate subject that the world will never agree on. But now, and I just wanted to give a shout to Ricon so this is recon our Ko and I had to look them up this now, but if you're out there in TV land and you want to learn about a new product, they are are shout of the day. Jeff, were way over time. Man, this has been an awesome interview. If folks out there want to keep up with you and the light boxer story, how what's a good way to do that? All our handles are just at light box or so check us out on instagram. Actually, we're tick Tock, very focused on tick tock, surprising, and we've seen a lot of trends getting built in the Tech Tock World, which you ask me if I would say that six months ago and say you're crazy but yeah, at light box or is there I fall our fine us on light boxercom and check us out. Okay, so if you are out there and you are over fifty years old, locate a millennial. They will help you navigate. Tick Tock and light boxer is spelled LTE, not L GHD LA. See eboxer. Jeff, it's been awesome. Man, thanks for being on the show it. We appreciate you being here today. Thanks, vint's appreciate every day. All right, everybody, thanks for listening. We'll see you guys on the Internet. You shouldn't have to worry about IOT projects dragging on or unreliable vendors. You've got enough on your plate. The right team of Engineers and project managers can change a pivotal moment for your business into your competitive edge. Varies. Close Knit crew of ambitious problem solvers, continuous improvers and curious builders know how to turn your ideas into a reality on time and up to your standards, with a focus on mitigating risk in maximizing opportunity, will help you build an Iot solution that you can hang your hat on. Let's bring your Iot idea to life. Learn more at very possiblecom you've been listening to over the air, Iot connected devices and the journey. If you enjoyed today's episode,...

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