Redefining the Imaginable in Space Exploration & Communication

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The most enticing opportunities on earth involve finding solutions to problems that have traditionally been considered impossible. What could be better than that?


How about redefining the imaginable outside of earth’s orbit — in deep space?


Neil Mallik, Office of the Chief Engineer for Space Communications and Navigation at NASA, joins the show to chat about the commercialization opportunities available in space exploration and communication.


We discuss:

- Openings for commercialization in the aerospace industry

- The technical challenges of interconnectivity outside of Earth

- Impossible things which might become possible within the next 10 to 15 years

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There are gaps here that we are able toabsolutely fell, and so, as a result, there are capabilities that now isgoing to be looking for going forward, and I think that really is kind of atthe root of when an Assad going, and I think that's the reason why it's suchan exciting time to be there or and be here right now. You are listening to over the air. Ioft connected devices and the journey brought to you by vary in each episode. We have sharpunfiltered conversations with executives about their IOT journeys,the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned and what they wish they'dknown when they started t minus five, four three to ignite rockets. Welcome back to overthe air it connected devices in the journey. My name is Ryan Prosser, CEO,very and my name is Luke. Will home chief product officer very and today weare very excited to be joined by NEO molock of the Office of the chiefengineer for space communications and navigation at NASA. Today, we're goingto be talking about the other side of impossible in space exploration andcommunication neel thanks for being on the show. Yes, thanks, ruing thanks, Luke ut's greedto be here, and I'm assuming you do that for all your guests with that withthe count down, because if you did that for my benefit, it's not like I'veheard that before I was going to say how often do you walk in a room andyour friends immediately began a t minus count. Now it's almost more like a tea minuscountdown for me to leave the room more than anything else. A is me no Sotian five, it's usually aone. I think the audience is immediately probably picked up on theBritish accent. We were joking in the pre interview that America makes anallotment for two people per year to come to the US and and take a job thisyou know I think traditionally thought of as quite essential American job. Sowas it you and Pierce Morgan the year that you came in no, absolutely not! I.I think I would just turn back around and go back to England. If that wastrue, I'm telling you now we have never derailed this quickly into an interview.Let's, let's, let's see if we can't wrangle it back on the rail so deal inall seriousness. You've got an incredible background. Tell us a littlebit about yourself and and how you came to be in this position a Assa and thenI've got a ton of questions for you about some of the things you guys areup to yeah yeah, absolutely all right. So so you know I'm just like every otherkid that grow up. I mean I dreamed of being a national when they, when I waslike you know up the age of nine and then I realized I scaroid, and then Iabandoned that almost immediately and then I actually became a cal mechanicand I actually had no intention of ever being an engineer of any kindwhatsoever, and so, as a result, my parents basically went and found outthat I ally had no desires of becoming any form of professional outside ofbeing a comical, and so, as a result,...

...they were like nope you're, going to goto school you're going to do something, and you know if there's always the be adoctor, be a lawyer be a you know. What have you and so I was? I took theenerney started, taking injuring classes, it all kind of made sense tome and yeah. I got an electrical engineeringdegree as fun as that sounds that the University of London and then I movedto the United States, and I went over to Stanford out there in Parlato, and Igot my master to Green Elicer engineering. I always thought I wasalways going to work in the cell phone industry as interesting as antennassound. I was actually fascinated by that more than anything else, and Ialways thought you know what cell phone and tenors would be a cool thing to getinto, and there was a reprove there and there was a space company there thatwas looking to higher rs communications engines, and so I joined orbital sciences over on theeast coast in Vitena and been in space since I worked there for ten years andI moved over to NASA about six years ago and so yeah t t t that's my storingenough show, amazing and and one of the things that we talked about in the preinterview was, you know, kind of along this line of establishing yourself in aplace where you never thought you'd be. You know, let alone becoming a leaderin for companies out there interested in the aerospace in space. You know ingetting into this this world. What are some of the gaps that you see and I'llsay up front, not asking you to make any commitmentson behalf of NASA, but you know for folks out there that are very that,like you had this dream, you know their company is looking and saying kind ofin this third space race, or this I don't know third big wave of investmentin this area. He talked about some of those gaps that you see and wherecompany might be able to get started. Getting into that area. We hear it veryfully understand and ness is not endosing any private companies,including Barry and is no ways listening to. Thank you look perfect and thank you, luke, okay, yeah buster wise. I would not haveprovided a response by it and I would have said next so yeah so wait. Yousaid Third Space Race. Well, that was a that was the second one I was you knowI space racist, the wrong way to say it, but, like I I come from what I wouldconsider to be a massive family and like this is, I don't know an area thathas been close near dared my heart same as yours, and I think of like okay, thefirst space race that people think of you know got to be the Russians. Let'sget there Kennedy said: Let's do it, we got there by sixty eight or sixty nine,and so we rode the Colombia program sent some people to the moon. Did somereally cool things. I view this, like second phase as like beginning to sendunmanned things and building telescopes that look or you know, looking very farafield, and I kind of see this third...

...wave, and I guess this is the worldaccording to Ryan. So I should ask this person that we should start with thatquestion. Do you view this as this that you know this third big wave? But youknow now we're starting to really think serious seems to me. I should say LesClose Your World According to Ryan that were in this third wave, where hey,let's re, begin sending people and let's have real conversations aboutsending them further, and you know now we're starting to you know space exessay: Hey we're, gonna, we're going to reuse rockets to bring the size of theinvestment way down. Jeff bezos is saying: Hey. Not only are we going tosend people, but I'm going to be one of the people which seems like a I don'tknow, a major shift from previous. You definitely never saw like Jean Kranssaying like get me in there guys, I'm going you know so now. You've gotpeople beginning to put their money where their mouth is. It feels to medistinctly different than the first two generations of space travel. Let'sbegin with that question. Am I characterizing this even close tocorrectly yeah? I see, I think you will. I think you know. Yes, it was the firstspace race right, the race of the Moon. That was number one. We won yeah, thesecond one. I think that you characterized was you know allthese big missions. I think there was never really any competition there.That was really just been a NASA kind of you know putting their elbows outgetting you know, taking over and being able to go and devel these capabilities,for you know magnificent science and being able to do all the the shovelmissions and being able to build the space station and all those things, andI wouldn't even consider that a race because it was really just kind of oneplayer and that was realy NASA if you want to quote the third wave here, andthat is really the the re not necessary a race back tomoon, it's going back to the moon and basically building on the future, foryou know going beyond, and I think that's what you're starting to see withMassa Nat Nasai doing a lot of things now, if you take a look at what they'vebeen doing recently and if you compare that back to be a pollipet, you knowback, then everyone at now so was really focused more on the n W. Let'sget back to the moon and they had some other small projects as well relativeto a pole. Now, if you take a look of what we're trying to do it, it's crazy,it's you know. We have the space station program that we're stillsupporting. We have commercial cargo, commercial crew. We have a lot ofscience missions that we're still supporting. We have astrophysics herophysics, we have. We have a Arnotta Division that are developing supersonicjets, that have low contrails and now we're trying to do deep space, and sowhat we're trying to see and- and I think this kind of goes back to whatyou are saying- and that was yeah now we're trying to find this new fronthere. Where are the caps going to be one of the things that we know weshould be looking at and a lot of the things that we're trying to do iscommercialize? You can see that with the success of commercial cargo and youcan see that, with the success of commercial crew, there are gaps herethat we are able to absolutely fell, and so, as a result, there arecapabilities that now is going to be looking for going forward, and I thinkthat really is kind of at the root of...

...where, as is going- and I think that'sthe reason why it's such an exciting time to be there and be here right now.Are there are there areas that you think that are right forcommercialization that maybe have not been there previously? You know sotoday you mentioned NASA being kind of the only player for a long time and nowyou're, seeing you know space ex and blue origin and something others and it,but it feels, like you know, they're competing for NASA contract, so thegovernment can the government funded piece of this remains. Do you have anopinion or thought, unlike at what point, and what thing drives this beingan Ri driven endeavor where hey this is that there's a private sector needthat's driving these things forward. Obviously I know launching satellitesand so forth has has been a big piece of that beyond that. Any thoughts onareas where this were the private sector could begin to drive things moreand moreyeah absolutely, and I think if you go and take a look at the NASAmodel of how things get done so net NASA is looking to basically helpindustry and I think that's where a lot of the private industries can kind ofgo and help make things away. Things need to be done again. NASA doesn'thave all the answers to everything. So so so this is the NASA approach and ata you know, if I had to distill it to a couple of points. First one is Nawsonknows that it has. It needs to have certain capabilities right. We talkedabout this with commercialization of taking a crew to the space station. Sowhat do they do? They go and provide some seed money to private industry todevelop a capability, then that those companies go and come back to NASA andthey sell Nasa these capabilities and NASA is like perfect. This is great,and so NASA then goes and provides mine to go and say yes, this is the servicethat I want and they go ahead and buy those services from those companies with those companies. You've nowdeveloped an industry with that industry. You now have a nobility forNAS to be able to go and buy a service as opposed to doing it themselves andso crew transport is an example of that. You can see that with both companiesthat have been awarded those contracts, and you can already start seeing thatreturn on investment. We are now having regular crew transport now and we'regoing to be bringing on the other provider shortly once they completetheir demonstration play, and so, as a result, I think I think we're moving inthat direction and that's essentially the part that nurse is going to begoing to tell us for something that you want so o. is there other things thatNASA is looking at in terms of overall gaps that we want to to be able to filland the other one is really directing in in the group that I'm in in spacecommunication and navigation narses looking to commercialize spacecommunication, at least in the what we call near Earth Demain, which isbasically anything from the the gasiness belt downwards and being ableto go and find out? How do we go and have private industry use theirinnovations to be able to go and allow...

...for space, communications andnavigations for all R Lowe, Thor, pining spacecraft? And so so that's anew interesting field. And again this is where we're looking at privateindustry to be able to go and say you know what. Maybe we should think a bitthis way. Maybe we should think about handling things outside of the waynasty used to do things and using a new strategy and having Nasby to go andleverage that and then help fund those activities and then developing a returninvestment for those companies that can make this a promising industry goingfor I've kind of always thought about it. Like that's, a is able to make betsthat you have no idea if they're going to pay off or nod, and it's likeventure capital world or like actual financial banking world. You reallywant to have a pretty good success. Probability and Essa puts out very hardchallenges and then funds them and hopes that one out of twenty actuallysee real success in the field. It's kind of, like Darpa, is another agencythat can push technology forward in that same kind of way, yeah, absolutelyand- and I think now says, moving back into that innovator space. They want tobe able to go and leverage the new things and the things are aren'tnecessary to Aden. True, they want to be able to go and see how you go and docertain things to make things more innovative, so thatway we're not relying on things that were designed and thought about thirtyforty years ago, so you mentioned communications. Iwanted to ask you about a broad topic of like let's call it connecting andhard to connect places. You know, we've had a number of guests on this show that havetalked about that being one of the key challenges of the product that they'vebuilt. You know whether they be in substare in Africa or you know, maybethey have an ad tech product. That is, you know needing to be able to connectin these remote agricultural areas. What are some of the technicalchallenges of for like interconnectivity outside of Earth'sorbit? I don't know what the R I imagine there's like a half dozenthings that maybe wouldn't even be obvious to someone who has spent hertheir whole life innovating. You know here on boring old earth like what aresome of the things that they should be thinking about, that maybe aren't asobvious yeah yeah yeah. Absolutely so so, obviously, I think you know, Ithink a lot of folks are aware or if they were, if they're not so, NASA isreally looking at deep space for exploration, right, sending humans backto the moon and going beyond and going to Mars, and so one of the things thatwe currently have at least on the Asochis. The Deep Space Network they'vebeen around for the longest time and they supported the Apollo mission. Andso we have these antennas located all over the Earth. Three specific placeswhere we're able to go and point at specific place in deep space and beable to communicate with spacecraft. And so one of the things that we'realso trying to figure about is, as we begin, the the long journey in terms ofhow we want to go ahead and explore. How do we go when make sure that we areable to go and connect in those hard to connect places, and so a if we go andjust say, focus on the moon?...

NASA is developing a system at aframework called Luna Net and basically, what it is is essentially a frameworkof network of networks. Basically, where you can go and get multiple typesof assets, it doesn't mean just one space wealth. It could be aconglomeration of multiple assets where you can basically go providecommunications and advocations around the moon, think about theinfrastructure around the earth and how we're able to go and connect almosteverything around the earth, space croth wise around the oceans. We haveassets out there in space that are basically going providing relayservices. We want to be able to do that around the moon, and so lunae goes andansers that, as well as providing those by directional communications, itprovides a navigation capability, so we know exactly where spacewards and weprovide a trunk back to the Earth. The great thing about this is it's almostlike you, big Quito Com Communications is like having your self a right. Everytime you look at your cell phone everywhere, you go. You always see fourballs or five balls depending on your network service provider, of course.Well, we want to be able to do that for our space ball and we want to be ableto do that for our astrals and I'll learn a robes and all the cub sets thatNASA sponsors from all these universities and high schools to beable to go and say yeah you can communicate, and so with that you cancover the places around the moon, for example, that we wouldn't otherwisecover the far side. We can cover the South Pole where we want a same crewand then we want to be able to make it extensible enough to the point where wecan take that framework and put it around mass and be able to go and dothe exact same thing as so. That's how you go and we solve the hard to connectplaces now I've kind of generalized it because I said that's how we solve itand for the for the listeners. I have put the inverted commerce with the withthe fingers thing, because we still need to figure out how to solve it andthat's where industry can come in and go and tell us exactly how we think weshould be doing it using innovative thoughts, as opposed to we've alwaysdone it. This way and using the status quote. One of the things I was thinkingabout, as you were talking about that first of it's kind of funny to think ofspace, is a hard to connect place, given how much we use space to connectwith the earth. The second thing I was thinking it was me we were talkingabout the deep space network that is still how we used to this day toconnect the voyager, which is like, as far out as it possibly gets, for aspacecraft that humans of long Sangwin, which I think is super cool and aproblem with the Deem Space Network, as I'm sure you're aware, is band with,because because there's only the three satellites and there's a ton of stuff,that's out there that we want to talk to so it sounds like this. is also totry to get in front of that band with problem as you put more and moreaircraft people, space, craft satellites, other things that want tostart talking just to make that ability as prevalent as possible, becauseotherwise, I'm pretty sure the high school students that sound the microsaid are not going to get any bad. We are not going to get any fan withrelative to the other priorities, yeah yeah, yeah and and if I scale back thethe mammoth, I think it's really more. You know, as you send Space Waltfurther out in the space the amount of...

...data you can send back, get smaller andsmaller and the right. That's that's just physics! You can blame yourphysics teacher for telling you that, because that's exactly the truth, youknow it's not necessarily a bound and issue on the DS ND. I you know, I knowthat they have high datara capabilities. It's really more. Just the further atyou go the smaller that pipe becomes just just out of general nature andthen, when it comes to the number of missions, we have to support it's a lotand the Dassen is managing it really. Well. Today they have the capacity goand support those, but as the number of missions increase- and we start doing alot more deep space elements, were we don't need more assets to be able to goand be able to go allowed. The DNA focus on the missions like voyagerright. If you take a look at those those antennas, there's so many metersin length, I mean just it's amazingly large and the fact that that thing canstill talk to voyage. It's still amazing and it's great so yeah I meanso so. There's absolutely opportunities here that you know people can leveragefor sure. So, like opportunities, people can leverageit. The most interest. Sing opportunities often are like solvingthese problems that are thought of as impossible. The you know the one thatwe're all seeing play out right now in real time, and I think it makes forsome of the most fascinating youtube videos that you could possibly ever see. Is thesereusable rockets? You know I mean they're break they're landing thesethings that just absolutely do not look like they lend themselves to landing inany kind of organized fashion and yet like it appears that space ex is pulledthis off. What are some things that you or what a thing or things that youthink of, as you know currently sitting on the wrong side of impossible, so youknow for all of the science fiction fans out there. What you see a lot oftimes is like they've traveled to this other galaxy. You know you put hem inthis this condition of stasis. You know, so weship them out they're twenty years old. Two Hundred Years later they arrivedthey're still twenty years old. You know, l for the audience that could see.They cannot see deal and is only listening to him. I yeah you may beable to hear him rolling his eye. I'm not suggesting that spaces will be theactual thing. But can you talk about like what are some things thatcurrently sit on the wrong side of impossible? That you think we may seesolved in the next ten or fifteen years yeah? So so so before I answer thatquestion, I think someone has been either Netflix saying or Bo maxingpassengers and always been watching. What was it captain America when asoldier right? Well, you know, but we I really wanted you to say, love deathand robots, but it's okay see I don't even know what that is, but yeah yeah yeah. So so I think oneof the things that and by the way I was eye rolling, quite hot. So I anyonethat...

Yeaou welcome. I think you know thereare a lot of things. I think Hollywood is great when it comes to imagining thethings that we don't usually expect eat. Now you use the landing rockets analogy.I think there's a lot of people that were really surprised that you knowsomeone could actually go and land a rocket that was normally. You knowsomething that you just kind of reentered the earth after completingits mission. So it's it's definitely possible. I think we've also redefinedthe imaginable and so at. As a result, you know to kind of bunce you questionwhat what's the thing that I can see that can't be done well, obviously, thetwo items that you've brought up right, stasis and being able to go andpreserve a certain age after you know two thousand and thirty. You know fourhundred years, whatever I think for us, it's really more. I would I put it intomore of a realistic, not necessary, can't be done, it just hasn't beenfigured out, and that is how do we get humans to Mars and be able to sustainit in the right possible way for us to go to Mars? If you take a look at justthe sheer distance and looking at how the orbits and again I apologize, theydon't want to go and into the technical flight dynamics. Aspects of all thisstuff, but the morsel of it was as the changes quite drastically depending onwhen, where it is, and so as a result, you know, mass could be really close,and so, as it was at, you can have a shorter distance to get into more ocould be really long and it could take years instead. The last thing you wantto do is be able to go and have a crew member go and launch, and then you knowcelebrate four or five birthdays on this honor spacecraft in this moreinclosed space and be able to go and land and be able to go and do all thethings that they need to do, and I think a great example is the Martian.If Anyone Watch that movie and again, this isn't an endusement for that moviespecifically, but I think they really kind of captured a lot of t e. Thechallenges that we would otherways see right. If I narrow it down into the thefield that I'm focusing on now with communications, you can see, you knowone of the first few things at mort wanton had to go and figure out was:How do you communicate back with earth and you can see that there were timedelays. We have to go and figure that out, because we haven't figured thatout. That's as of right now we need to get it back to real time, becausethat's what we all used to right- everyone in this world of zoom andteams and Wede, are used to this instant, be back. We don't get thatwith any of these missions in deep space. So how do we go and do that witha crew interaction, for example, if a national goes and sees something it'sgoing to be hours potentially minutes, maybe depending on where Mars is inthat orbit to be able to go and get a response it to mission control? So howdo you change that? So so those are some of the things that we haven'tsolved. Yet in terms of things that can't be done, I would say it's goingout further: How do we go to more distant places as of right? Now? Idon't think that can be done not unless we go and you know build our own littlequantum thing. You know where you know like in the avengers right where we cango straight into the into that specific...

...thing and you get our own quantum timehave own men put something together, but I will tell you actually a funnierside relatively funnier side is NASA is also working on quarante communications.How do we go and move data really quickly and be able to go and move iton photons again, we will save that for another podcast, maybe the the late night very podcast, perhaps so that again so nat NASA is doing a lotof cool cool things and we're trying to go and do the things that no one'sactually ever remit to to as one when you got to the clanton worm hole. I waseye rolling really hard just so everybody could do that. No, I wasdoing it because I could see doing it, and so I thought you know what I'm notgoing to waste his opportunity. So I thought we should definitely have asound effect so that the audience knows when someone has made their the otherperson. I roll, but look please e. The second thing thought I was having. Irecognized that here a communication guys is two things. One was the onlyway I can see real time feedback to accrue. That's on Mars actuallyhappening as if, essentially it's an artificial thing in orbit, like aseries or whatever that's that's reasonably able to respond to hardrequest that they might have because otherwise distance is distance andwhite is white. So there's not much. You can do about that to some degreethat he thoughts on like feasibility of that yeah. Actually so, and so look is. This is going to bekind of funny. So I'm going to go and put you put the spotlight on you soremember when I was talking about this Lunan idea and how extensible it wasand it was like. Oh, we can go and wrap this around Moss. That's essentiallywhat we're trying to do so, I think we're going to build a a emotion ofequivalent called Molsme, which does the essentially the same thing. Youbasically have the ability of being on to communicate close to real time withessentially the assets around mass. The question is: How do you go and have theautonomy and fault responses, and all that good stuff and again those are going to be some ofthe things that we need to figure about, because yeah you're not going to beable to figure out the the light speed item back to work, because it couldjust be very very long so that hopefully answers that question and thesecond one is creary. It shows that you weren't listening to what I was sayingearlier. All I could think about was how we were going to protect all theseastronauts in radiation the whole time they're flying to ours. That's thenumber one technical challenge that always comes to mine and I think ofactually sending like living things that far into space outside of our lace,protective M magnit per cocoon of earth. Yes, because I a true but to a calm guy,you know bit radiation come up, isn't all communications just radiationanyway, that's just one o the Ole things that just be er all right. Well, this is a perfectquestion for a calm guy at NASA. One of the things that's been dominating thenews cycle right now is you know, we're seeing a lot of seemingly very seriouspeople in the Navy Naval, pilots,...

...airplane pilots say you know. Look Ipersonally have seen unexplained phenomenon. I think the government has has transitioned from the acronym ufoto U A P, I believe unexplained arial phenomenon, but you know we're startingto see a shift away from this. Being more of you know the Tinfoil hat crowdand towards folks that most people would consider to be. You know on themore serious end of the spectrum, but you know we also saw nil de Grass Tysonon Bill Mars. Show last week say: You know, hey look. What do you reallythink is a higher probability explanation that the navigation systemsin these aircraft is glitch? Okay, so these are government acquiredtechnologies, no offense against NASA, but the government is not famous foralways buying the best best technical solutions. Again, no fense NASA. Welove you and appreciate all the hard work you've done. Do you think that ishigher probability? Or do you think that aliens are visiting Earth andbeing captured on video? What can you tell us? Where is Neil and where isNASA at on this issue? Okay, yeah yeah yeah. So let me let me give you the thethe NASA response and then I'll give you the the world. According to NeilMolock, these a Vos said Nel to cross Tyson, then I would just point you to ato a segment, but all right, so the the Nessa Line, so you AP by the way. Justso you know Ryan, because you know I natesa. I can tell you this: it'sunidentified aerial phenomenal. So there you go so that helps clarify ifanyone was wondering and was trying to Google it. I was doing it as you ask myquestion, so yeah yeah, so so here's the thing yeah so that sothere are these three unclassified videos out there. It's interesting.Obviously I think so from the NASA standpoint. It's you know, Nessa alwaysbeen kind of looking for you know the search for life in the universe. So youknow at this point I can tell you: Nass has not yet found any credible evidenceof any extraterrestrial life, but NASA is exploring the sole systemand looking to answer those fundamental questions, because I think that'salways been part of the curiosity and why we want to explore. So again. Youknow NASA is ready to go and support the rest of the government when itcomes to the search for life and being able to go and help us to pull any ofthose activities thereafter. So so that's that's it and that in again youknow, I agree with that, so the water going to kneel- and I actually secondwhat the other Neal said. So you made a comment about the gligy video yeah, soso and again nothing against the the Navy folks and our military brethren,but that's more of a navy thing, not a NASA thing just to just ahead some. Theother thing is for us. I think noders Tyson kind of covered it quite nicely,and that is you know if we really all seeing these ups ufoss. Why is it thatthey're already making themselves...

...available when we're flying somethingelse you know and why? Why are the videos always so so low death? I am I'mpretty sure there are more capabilities that our our knows her breath and Ihave- and so it's always interesting that we're seeing that- and I think youknow the other. The other thing from my perspective is you know our fos right.What does that say for unidentified? So you know, for example, it just becauseI go and take my Coffee Cup and I crunch it up and it doesn't look like aCoffee Cup any more and I throw it across the room. It would look like aCoffee Cup, so it would be unidentified if you can't tell to Coffee Cup it'sflying and it's also an object, so that would be a ufo right. So in a way it'salmost like okay. Well, you know, if that's a UFO than anything we to you anoo them we can sell speculating. I honestly don't believe we are alone inthe universe. That's just my personal opinion. I think you know that there'sgoing to be smote life forms out there. If not. Well, that's an interestingpodcast in itself. We just haven't found them, and I think these are justyou know. Some data points that's of interest, but I I wouldn't you know,think that hey by the way that they're coming and visiting US only right infront of our pilots, you know that just seems a little far fetched to me.You'll think that they would show up at more interesting locations. Like Idon't know, you know they could go and visit some monument somewhere here inthe United States. They can go and see something fancy. You know. Why wouldthey just go and see us in space? They would come to. You know, see somethingNice Yeah, so Sean Carol, the Cosne and gravitational theoretical physicistdoes a podcast called Mindscape, and he was just talking literally about this.One of those people were asking about Leo. What are the odds? What proof foryou ned to see that sort of thing he's like, I think, the probability of therebeing fuzzy objects on camera screens or instrumentation devices like radarwhatever and them not being identified and people speculating about them islike near one. Like certainly that happens. The ASA, an intergalacticoutside space technology could fly all the way to earth and then try to hidefor most, but not hide good enough that we sort of see him he's like I put thatin on those zero. So it would take some real convincing evidence to get himover. The goal line sounds like you as well, and certainly I've fallen in thesame camp. Yeah Yeah. Absolutely I mean you know,here's the thing. You think that if they would come up on people's ringcameras, for example like walk in the streets at certain times of the night,you know so you know but, like I said, oh like thisis like a, I think the guys are going to get here and like not be able to besaying at all or come down and say hello, I think the odds of there beinga middle ground or pretty low yeah. Exactly like what it's almostlike you coming so far, and then saying you know what now that's all right, I'mjust going to turn around and go back right. What like, why would you do that?So you know what I have. I have one serious question. I think a lot ofpeople out there are maybe asking this himself d devil's advocate. Do you notthink there's a case to be made?...

You know so to Luke's point about likesomewhere in the middle not get caught or come say hello. You know the e tseems like they're being captured in the places where no one else is, except,for you know, airplanes that are in the middle of nowhere at high altitudezipping along really fast. Do you do you not think that there's doyou think, there's any realistic probability that they are being caughtunawares and saying? Oh Dang, you know and sipping out of there real quick,you feel like the probet of that is like at the edge of negligible. So almost just doesn't seem to make sense.Then again, I'm we're also trying to rationalize what it is that they'retrying to do as well right, I think if they, if they had that human curiosity,I think they would kind of go and try to engage at some point. But againthese are like ail in forms right. These could be like little books right.You know. If you go and see one of those little Saketa come out. You knowout out of you right that that's what we think anyones are going to be right,they're all over you. They just want to engage, but if you go and see that alittle spider or you see like an animal sunkin of you trying to reach for it,they go and scule away. Maybe that's what I ions, or maybe this is exactlyhow they interact. Maybe this is normal. Maybe it isn't maybe we're overthinking it, and maybe someone went and caught. I don't know like a defatedparachute flying somewhere and that moved and you know maybe o they're allgoing to the things out there. You know they could be. They could be badtourists. You know so so you know, visiting Earth is one of the areas thatyou can visit. You know you save up for holiday, you get to visit a any planet.Galaxy you've always wanted to go to earth and see the blue dot. You knowand you come to Earth and there's there's rules you're supposed to gohere at these times in these places, and but you said, let's get a littlebit closer. You know this is like my you know my dad. Would you know when hegoes to national parks, he's the guy that wants to step over the rope lineand take a picture with the Buffalo and I'm like dad? Those are the people thatget gored by the Bison. You know and he's like no come on and so k. You knowthe rules are for, don't worry about it. You know so so so maybe we're lookingat the like the the aliens that are the bad tourists yeah I mean I would almostuse the analogy of think I think about someone coming from another country.Right, let's go and say England, everyone in England loves to come toNew York City right everyone, because, oh my God is New Your City, it's great!Well, that's almost the equipment of saying, Hey. I've just landed at J F K,sweet, I'm in New York City, even though you're not really and thenturning around and say. Okay, I went to see New York City and I went back rightyou're, not really seeing anything right so yeah. It definitely is badtourist syndrome. If we want to go and create that acronym, I know that welove that yeah so pts, that's all Switzerland exactly like that. By theway we end at the airport to a conference in the airport and flewright back out and never left the airport and see there you go and youvisited Switzerland see there. You go see yeah Neil. I want to thank you forbeing on the show today. My friend, this has been a hoot. I enjoyed the pre.I enjoyed the interview. I hope the...

...folks at home have enjoyed learning alittle bit about space today if people want to to catch up with you after thisworking folks find you, I have a linked in profile to day. Go I'm alreadydating myself by just saying that alone. So you can find me on Linkedin neo,Mallik M, a L L. I K. I don't actually have a true digital profile, I'll giveyou the nasal one. So for us, it's mass about Gove, obviously, and for spacecommunications, IT'S NASAO GOV for flash scan. That's s can all right. Soif you are looking, you looking take an act with Neil molick, it sounds likeLinkin is the way to achieve it. Neil thank you for so much for being on theshow today. Folks on the show say: that's it today. Folks, my name is Ryanand I'm luke. Thanks for listening and I'm nail. Okay, this is, it will see you guys on the Internet. You shouldn't have to worry about IOTprojects dragging on or unreliable vendors. You've got enough on yourplate. The right team of Engineers and project managers can change a Pilotamoment for your business into your competitive edge. Various close knitcrew of ambitious problem, solvers, continuous improvers and curiousbuilders know how to turn your ideas into a reality on time and up to yourstandards, with a focus on mitigating risk and maximizing opportunity willhelp you build an io t solution that you can hang your hat on. Let's bringyou our Iot idea to life, learn more it very possible com. You've beenlistening to over the Air Iot connected devices and the journey, if you enjoyto day's episode, make sure to hit subscribe in your favorite podcastplayer and give us a rating, have a question or an idea for a futureepisode. Send it to podcast at very possible com. See you next time. I.

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