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Redefining the Imaginable in Space Exploration & Communication

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The most enticing opportunities on earth involve finding solutions to problems that have traditionally been considered impossible. What could be better than that?


How about redefining the imaginable outside of earth’s orbit — in deep space?


Neil Mallik, Office of the Chief Engineer for Space Communications and Navigation at NASA, joins the show to chat about the commercialization opportunities available in space exploration and communication.


We discuss:

- Openings for commercialization in the aerospace industry

- The technical challenges of interconnectivity outside of Earth

- Impossible things which might become possible within the next 10 to 15 years

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There are gaps here that we are able to absolutely fill and so, as a result, they are capabilities that NASA's going to be looking for going forward, and I think that really is kind of at the root of when NASA is going and I think that's the reason why it's such an exciting time to be there. R'm be here right now. You are listening to over the Air Iot connected devices and the journey, brought to you by vary. In each episode we have sharp, unfiltered conversations with executives about their IOT journeys, the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned and what they wish they'd known when they started. T minus five, four, three, two, ignite rockets. Welcome back to over the Air IOT connected devices of the journey. My name is Ryan Process, CEO vary, and my name is Luke Willem, chief product officer. Very and today we are very excited to be joined by Neil Mullick of the office of the chief engineer for space communications and navigation at NASA. Today we're going to be talking about the other side of impossible in space exploration and communication. Neil, thanks for being on the show. Yes, Thanks Ryan, thanks Luke, it's great to be here and I'm assuming you do that for all your guests with that with the countdown, because if you did that for my benefit, it's not like I've thought that before. I was going to say, I I how often do you walk in a room and your friends immediately began a teas countdown? It's almost more like a tea countdown for me to leave the room more than anything else, and it's me knows not again, five is usually at one. I think the audience is immediately probably picked up on the British accent. We were joking in the pre interview that America makes an allot met for two people per year to come to the US and take a job. This, you know, I think, traditionally thought of as quintessential American job. So was it you and Piers Morgan the year that you came in? No, absolutely not that. I I think I would just turned back around and go back to England if that was true. I'm telling you now we have never derailed this quickly into an interview. Let's let's let's see if we can't wrangle it back on the rail. So, Neil and all seriousness, you've got an incredible background. Tell us a little bit about yourself and and how you came to be in this position NASA, and then I've got ton of questions for you about some of the things you guys are up to. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, all right. So, so, you know, I I'm just like every other kid that grew up. I mean I dreamed up being an astronaut when they when I was like, you know, up the edge of nine, and then I realized I was kind of heights and then I abandoned that almost immediately. And then I actually became a call mechanic and I actually had no intention of ever being an engineer of any kind whatsoever. And so, as a result, my parents basically went and found out that I actually had no desires of becoming any formal professional outside of being a car mechanic. And so,...

...as a result, they were like Nope, you're going to go to school, you're going to do something, and you know, there's always the be a doctor, be a lawyer, be a you know, what have you. And so I was actually engineering route astart, taking injuring classes. It all kind of made sense to me. And Yeah, I got an electrical engineering degree, as fun as that sounds, out of the University of London and then I moved to the United States and I went over to Stanford out there in Palo Alto, and I've got my master's De Green Electric Engineering. I always thought I was always going to work in a self in industry as interesting as antenna's sound. I was actually fascinated by that more than anything else and I always thought, you know what, cell phone antennas would be a cool thing to get into. And there was a recruitment fare and there was a space company that was looking to hire our F communications engineers, and so I joined orbital sciences over on the East Coast in Virginia and being in space since I worked there for ten years and I moved over to NASA about six years ago. And so, yeah, that that, that's my story in the nutshell. Amazing and it one of the things that we talked about in the pre interview was, you know, kind of a long lines of establishing yourself in a place where you never thought you'd be, you know, let alone becoming a leader in for companies out there interested in the aerospace, in space, you know, in getting into this this world. What are some of the gaps that you see and I'll say up front, not asking you to make any commitments on behalf of NASA. But you know, for folks out there that are very like you, had this dream, you know, their company is looking and saying kind of in this third space race or this out of a third big wave of investment in this area. Can you talk about some of those gaps that you see and where company might be able to get started getting into that area? We hear it very fully. Understand that NASA is not endorsing any private companies, including Verry, and there's no ways listening doesn't. Thank you, Luke. Perfect, and thank you luke. Okay. Um, yeah, because otherwise I would not have provided a response by it and I will have said next. So, yeah, I wait. You said thood space race. Well, that was a that was the second one. I let don't you know. I space race is the wrong way to say it. But like I I come from what I would consider to be a NASA family and like this is a, I don't known, area that has been close, near dear in my heart, same as yours, and I think of like, okay, the first space race that people think of, you know, got to beat the Russians. Let's get there. Kennedy said, let's do it. We got there by sixty eight or sixty nine, and it's so we rode the the Columbia Program send some people to the moon. It's really cool things. I view this like second phase, as like beginning to send unmanned things and building telescopes that look, you know, looking very far afield, and I kind of see this third...

...wave and I guess this is the world according to Ryan. So I should ask this person that we should start with that question. Do you view this as this that, you know, this third big wave? But you know now we're starting to really think serious? Seems to me, I should say disclosure world according to Ryan, that we're in this third wave where, hey, let's rebegin sending people and let's have real conversations about sending them further. And you know now we're starting to you know, spacex is say, Hey, we're going to we're going to reuse rockets to bring the size of the investment way down. Jeff bezos is saying, Hey, not only are we going to send people, but I'm going to be one of the people, which seems like a, I don't know, a major shift from previous you definitely never saw like gene crans saying like get me in there, guys, I'm going you know. So now you've got people beginning to put their money where their mouth is. It feels to me distinctly different than the first two generations of space travel. Let's begin with that question. Am I characterizing this even close to correctly? Yeah, actually, I think you will. I think you know. Yes, it was the first space race, right, the race of the Moon. That was number one. We won. Yeah, the second one, I think that you characterized was, you know, all these big missions. I think there was never really any competition that. That was really just being a NASA kind of, you know, putting that Rault those out getting, you know, taking over and being able to go and devote these capabilities for you know, magnificent science and being able to do all the shuttle missions and being able to build a space station and all those things. And I wouldn't even consider that a race because it was really just kind of one player, and that was really NASA, if you want to call it the third wave here, and that is really the the rate. Not Necessary a race back to the moon. It's going back to the moon and basically building on the future for, you know, going beyond, and I think that's what you're starting to see with NASA. NASA is doing a lot of things now. If you take a look at what they've been doing recently and if you compare that back to the Apollo era, you know, back then everyone at NASA was really focused more on the you know, let's get back to the moon, and they had some other small projects as well relative to a pod. Now, if you take a look at what we're trying to do, it's it's crazy. It's you know, we have the space station program that we're still supporting, we have commercial cargo, commercial crew, we have a lot of science missions that we're still supporting. We have astrophysics, Heliophysics, we have we have our aeronauticle division that are developing supersonic jets that have low contrails, and now we're trying to do deep space. And so what we're trying to see, and I think this kind of goes back to what you were saying that was, yeah, now we're trying to find this new frontier, where the gaps going to be, where are the things that we know we should be looking at, and a lot of the things that we're trying to do is commercialize. You can see that with the success of commercial cargo and you can see that with the success of commercial crew. There are gaps here that we're able to absolutely fail and so, as a result, that are capabilities that NASA is going to be looking for going forward, and I think that really is kind of at the root of when...

NASA is going and I think that's the reason why it's such an exciting time to be there or be here right now. Are there are there areas that you think that are right for commercialization that maybe have not been there previously? You know, so to today. You mentioned NASA being kind of the only player for a long time and now you're seeing, you know, spacex and blue origins with these others and it, but it feels like, you know, they're competing for NASA contracts. So the government connect, the government funded piece of this remains. Do you have a an opinion or thought on like at what point and what thing drives this being a Roi driven endeavor where, Hey, this is that there's a private sector need that's driving these things. Word, obviously, I know launching satellites and so forth has has been a big piece of that. Beyond that, any thoughts on areas where this where the private sector could begin to drive things more and more? Yeah, absolutely, and I think if you go and take a look at the the NASA movel of how things get done, so NASA is looking to basically help industry and I think that's where a lot of the private industries can kind of go and help make things away. Things need to be done. Again, NASA doesn't have all the answers to everything. So so this is the NASA approach at a you know, if I had to distill it into a couple of points. First one is NASA knows that it has a it needs to have certain capabilities, right. We talked about this with commercialization of taking crew to the space station. So what do they do? They go and provide some seed money to private industry, to the to develop a capability. Then that those companies go and come back to NASA and they sell NASA these capabilities and NASA is like perfect, this is great. And so NASA then goes and provides money to go and say yes, this is the service that I want, and they go ahead and buy those services from those companies. With those companies. You've now developed an industry. With that industry, you now have an ability for NAS to be able to go and buy a service as opposed to doing it themselves, and so crew transport is an example of that. You can see that with both companies that have been awarded those contracts and and you can already start seeing that return on investment. We are now having regular crew transport now and we're going to be bringing on the other provider shortly once they've complete their demonstration flight, and so, as a result, I think I think we're moving in that direction and that's essentially the part that NASA is going to be going to answer something that you are so earlier. Is there other things that NASA is looking at in terms of overall gaps that we want to get be able to fill? And the and the other one is really directly in in the group that I'm in and space communication and navigation. NASA's looking to commercialize space communication, at least in the what we call near Earth Domain, which is basically anything from the the geosynchronous belt downwards, and being able to go and find out how do we go and have private industry use...

...their innovations to be able to go and allow for space communications and navigations for all our lower orbiting spacecraft, and so so that's a new, interesting field. And again this is where we're looking at private industry to be able to go and say, you know what, maybe we should think of it this way. Maybe we should think about handling things outside of the way nasty used to do things and using a new strategy and having NASA be able to go and leverage that and then help fund those activities and then developing a return investment for those companies that can make this a promising industry going forth. I've kind of always thought about it like NASA is able to make bets that you have no idea if they're going to pay off or not, and like venture capital world or like actual financial banking world, you really want to have a pretty good success probability, and NASA puts out very hard challenges and then funds them and hopes that one out of twenty actually see real success in the field and it's kind of like Darpos, another agency that can push technology forward in that same kind of word. Yeah, absolutely, and I think NASA's moving back into that innovative space. They want to be able to go and leverage the new things and the things ill aren't necessary try and true. They want to be able to go and see how you go and do certain things to make things more innovative, so that way we're not relying on things that would design them thought about thirty, forty years ago. So you mintioned communications. I wanted to ask you about a broad topic of like, let's call it, connecting in hard to connect places. You know, we've had a number of guests on this show that have talked about that being one of the key challenges of the product that they've built, you know, whether they've been subsist to here in Africa or, you know, maybe they have an ag tech product that is, you know, needing to be able to connect in these remote agricultural areas. What are some of the technical challenges of, for like, interconnectivity outside of Earth's orbit? I don't know what there I imagine there's like a half dozen things that maybe wouldn't even be obvious to someone who has spent their their whole life innovating, you know, here on on boring old earth like. What are some of the things that they should be thinking about that maybe aren't as obvious yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely so. So, obviously I think, you know, I think a lot of folks are away, or if they were, if they're not. So NASA is really looking at deep space exploration right sending humans back to the moon and going beyond and going to mass and so one of the things that we currently have, at least on the NASA side, is the deep space network. They've been around for the longest time. They suppulled it up the Apollo mission, and so we have these antennas located all over the Earth, three specific places where we're able to go and point at specific place in the deep space and be able to communicate with spacecraft. And so one of the things that we're also trying to figure out is, as we begin to the long journey in terms of how we want to go ahead and explore, how do we go and make sure that we are able to go and connect in those hard to connect places? And so if we go and just say focus on the moon, NASA...

...is developing a system, a framework called Lunar Net and basically what it is is essentially a framework of network of networks, basically where you can go and get multiple types of assets. It doesn't mean just one space wealth. It could be a conglomeration of multiple assets where you can basically go and provide communications and navigations around the moon. Think about the infrastructure around the earth and how we're able to go and connect almost everything around the earth, spacecraft wise, around the oceans. We have assets out there in space set are basically going providing relay services. We want to be able to do that around the moon, and so lunar net goes and answer set. As well as providing those bidirectional communications, it provides navigation capability, so we know exactly where space raft are and we provide a trunk back to the Earth. The great thing about this is it's almost like you biquitous communications is like having your cell phone right. Every time you look at your cell phone, every way you go, you always see four balls or five balls, depending on your network service provider, of course. Well, we want to be able to do that for our space raft and we want to be able to do that for our actional and our Lunar Rovers and all the keep sets that nasusponses from all these universities in high schools to be able to go and say, yeah, you can communicate, and so with that you can cover the places around the moon, for example, that we wouldn't otherwise cover. The the fall side. We can come at the South Pole where we want to send crewe and then we want to be able to make it extensible enough to the point where we can take that framework and put it around malls and be able to go and do the exact same thing as so that's how you go when we solve the hall to connect places. Now I've kind of generalized it because I said that's how we solve it. And for the for the listeners, I've put the inverted commas with the with the fingers thing, because we still need to figure out how to solve it and that's where industry can come in and go and tell us exactly how we think we should be doing it, using innovative thoughts as opposed to we've always done it this way and using the status quote. One of the things I was thinking about as you were talking about that. First off, it's kind of funny to think of space is a hard to connect place, given how much we use space to connect the earth. The second thing I was thinking I was when you were talking about the deep space network. That is still how we used to this day to connect to voyager, which is like as far out as it possibly gets for spacecraft that humans have lunched anyway, which I think is super cool. And a problem with the Deep Space Network, as I'm sure you're aware, is bandwidth, because because there's only the three satellites and there's a ton of stuff that's out there that we want to talk to. So it sounds like this is also to try to get in front of that bandwidth problem as you put more and more aircraft, people, spacecraft and satellites other things that want to start talking, just to make that ability as prevalent as possible, because otherwise I'm pretty sure the high school students of sound the micro said, are not going to get any bad are not going to get any band with relative to the other priorities. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and if I scale back the the Mombo Jumbo, I think it's really more you know, as you send space craft further out in the space, the amount of data you can send back get...

...smaller and smaller, and right, that's that's just physics. You can blame your physics teacher for telling you that, because that's exactly the truth. You know, it's not necessarily a boudidth issue on the DS and I you know, I know that they have high data rate capabilities. It's really more just the further out you go, the smaller that pipe becomes, just just out of general nature. And then when it comes to the number of missions we have to support, it's a lot and the DSENT is managing it really well. Today they had the capacity go and support those but as the number of missions increase and we'd start doing a lot more deep space elements, we don't need more assets to be able to go and be able to go allowed the DS and the focus on the missions like voyager right. If you take a look at those, those antennas, that's seventy meters in length. I mean just it's amazingly large and the fact that that thing can still talk to voyager is it's still amazing and it's great. So yeah, I mean so there's absolutely opportunities here that, you know, people can leverage, for sure. So like opportunities people can leverage either. Most interesting opportunities often are like solving these problems that are thought of as impossible. The you know, the one that we're all seeing play out right now in real time, and I think it makes for some of the most fascinating youtube videos that that are you could possibly ever see. Is these reusable rockets, you know, I mean their break, their landing, these things that just absolutely do not look like they lend themselves to landing in any kind of organized fashion. And and yet, like it appears that spacex has pulled this off. What are some things that you or what thing or things that you think of, as you know, currently sitting on the wrong side of impossible. So, you know, I for all of the science fiction fans out there, what you see a lot of times is like they've traveled to this other galaxy. You know, you put them in this this condition of stasis, you know, so we ship them out there twenty years old. Two Hundred Years later, they arrived there still twenty years old. You know, I'll for the audience that can see, they cannot see, Neil and is will be listening to him. I yeah, you may be able to hear him rolling his eyes. I'm not suggesting that stasis will be the actual thing, but can you talk about, like what are some things that currently sit on the wrong side of impossible that you think we may see solved in the next ten or fifteen years. Yeah. So, so, before I answer that question, I think someone has been either Netflix saying oh HBO maxing passengers and or has been watching the what was it captain America? When a soldier right? Well, you know where they I really wanted you to say love, death and robots, but it's okay, see, I don't even know what that is. But yeah, yeah, yeah, so, so I think one of the things that and by the way, I was eye rolling quite hard. So if anyone could actually hear that, you know, yeah, you're welcome. I think you...

...know, there are there are a lot of things. I think holy wood is great when it comes to imagining the things that we don't usually expect. Eating you use the landing rockets analogy. I think there's a lot of people that were really surprised that, you know, someone could actually go on land a rocket that was normally, you know, something that you've just kind of re entered the earth after completing its mission. So it's it's definitely possible. I think we've also redefined the imaginable and so, as a result, you know, to kind of answer your question, what, what's the thing that I can see that can't be done. Well, obviously the two items that you brought up right, stasis and being able to go and preserve a certain age after, you know, twenty, thirty, four hundred years whatever. I think for us it's really more I would I'll put it into more of a realistic not necessary copy done. It just hasn't been figured out, and that is how do we get humans to moss and be able to sustain it in there in the right possible way for us to go to mass? If you take a look at just the Shar distance and looking at how the orbits, and again, I apologize, I don't want to go and into the technical flight dynamics aspects of all the stuff, but the Mossle of it, well, it's of the earth changes quite drastically depending on when, where it is, and so, as a result, you know, mass could be really close and so, as there was alt, you can have a short distance to getting to Mars or it could be relong and it could take years. Instead, the last thing you want to do is be able to go and have a crew member go and launch and then, you know, celebrate four or five birthdays on this on a space craft in this more enclosed space and be able to go and land and be able to go and do all the things that they need to do. And I think a great example is the Martian if anyone watch that movie. And again, this isn't an endorsement for that movie specifically, but I think they really kind of captured a lot of the challenges that we would otherwise see. Right, if I narrow it down into the fit the field that I'm focusing on now with communications, you can see, you know, one of the first few things out mark, whattey had to go and figure out was how do you communicate back with earth? Then you can see that there were time delays. We have to go and figure that out because we haven't figured that out. That's as of right now. We need to get it back to real time because that's what we all used to right. Everyone in this world of Zoom and teens and WEDDEX are used to this instant feedback. We don't get that with any of these missions in deep space. So how do we go and do that? With a crew interaction, for example, if a national goes and see something, it's going to be ours potentially minutes maybe be depending on where Mars is in that orbit to be able to go and get a response out of mission control. So how do you change that? So those are some of the things that we haven't solved yet. In terms of things that can't be done, I would say it's going out further. How do we go to more distant places? As of right now, I don't think that can be done, not unless we go when, you know, build our own little quantum thing, you know where, you know, like in the avengers right, where we can go straight into the into that specific thing and you get our own...

...quantum tunnel and have iron men put something together. But I will tell you actually, a funnier side, relatively funny aside, is NASA's also working on quantum communications. How do we go and move data really quickly and be able to go and move it on photons? Again, we will say that for another podcast, maybe the late night very podcast perhaps. So that again. So NASA is doing a lot of course, cool things and we're trying to go and do the things that no one's actually ever remained too. That's one. When you got to the quantum wormhole, I was eye rolling really hard just so everybody could hear that. Now I was doing it, because I could see you doing it, and so I thought, you know what, I'm not going to waste this opportunity. So I thought we should definitely have a sound effect so that the audience knows when someone has made there the other person. I roll, but look please, because the second thing thought I was having. I recognize that you're a communication guys as to things. One was the only way I can see real time feedback to a crew that's on Mars actually happening is if, essentially it's an artificial thing in orbit, like a Serie or whatever, that's that's reasonably able to respond to hard request that they might have, because otherwise distance is distance and white is white. So there's not much you can do about that to some degree. Any thoughts on like feasibility of them? Yeah, actually, so. And so, look, there's this is going to be kind of funny, so I'm going to go and put you put the spotlight on you. So remember when I was talking about this lunar net idea and how extensible it was and it was like, Oh, we can go and wrap this around Moss? That's essentially what we're trying to do. So I think we're going to build a emulsion equivalent called malls net, which does the essentially the same thing. You basically have the ability of being to communicate close to real time with essentially the assets around Moss. The question is, how do you go and have the autonomy and fault responses and all that good stuff, and that again that those are going to be some of the things that we need to figure out because, yeah, you're not going to be able to figure out the the lightspeed item back to what, because it could just be very, very long. So that hopefully answer that question in the second one is clearly it shows that you want. Listening to what I was saying earlier, all I could think about was how we're going to protect all these astronauts from radiation the whole time they're flying to ours. That's the number one technical challenge. It always comes to mind when I think of actually sending like living things that far space, outside of our last protective magnetosphere, cocoon of earth. Yeah, true, but but to a calm guy, you know if radiation, come on, isn't all communications just radiation anyway? That's just one beal to things just because that's right. All right. Well, this is a perfect question for a calm guy at NASA. One of the things that's been dominating the news cycle right now is, you know, we're seeing a lot of seemingly very serious people in the Navy, naval pilots, airplane pilots, say, you know, look,...

I personally have seen unexplained phenomenon. I think the government has has transition from the acronym ufo to, you AP, I believe, unexplained aerial phenomenon. But you know, we're starting to see a shift away from this being more of, you know, the Tinfoil hat crowd and towards folks that most people would consider to be, you know, on the more serious end of the spectrum. But you know, we also saw Neil degrasse Tyson on Bill Mars show last week say, you know, hey, look, what do you really think is a higher probability explanation that the the navigation systems in these aircraft is glitching? Okay, so these are government acquired technologies. No offense against NASA, but the government is not famous for always buying the best, best technical solutions. Again, no offense NASA. We love you and appreciate all the hard work you've done. Do you think that is higher probability, or do you think that aliens are visiting Earth and being captured on video? What can you tell us? Where is Neil and where is NASA at on this issue? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, so let me let me give you the the the NASA response, and then I'll give you the the walled according to Nail Molick, because if I said nailed across Tyson, then I would just point you to his to segment. But all right, so the the NASA line. So you AP. By the way, just say you know Ryan, because you know I'm NASA so I can tell you this. It's unidentified aerial phenomenal. So there you go. So that helps clarify. If anyone was wondering and was trying to Google it, I was doing it as you ask the question. So yeah, yeah, so so here's the thing. Yeah, so that's so there are these three unclassified videos out there. It's interesting, obviously, I think so. From the NASA standpoint it's you know, NASA's always been kind of looking forward, you know, the search for life in the universe. So you know, at this point I can tell you NASA has not yet found any credible evidence of any extraterrestrial life. But NASA is exploring the solar system and looking to answer those fundamental questions, because I think that's always been part of the curiosity and why we want to explore. So again, you know, NASA is ready to go and support the rest of the government when it comes to the search for life and being able to go and help support any of those activities thereafter. So that's Nassa and that in again, you know, I agree with that. So the world according to Neil, and I actually second what the other nails said. So you made a comment about the glitchy video. Yeah, so, and again nothing against the the Navy folks and our military brethren, but that's more of a navy thing, not a Nassy thing. Just just ahead some the other thing is for us. I think Neil, the Gross Tyson kind of covered it quite nicely, and that is, you know, if, if we really are seeing these U APS ufos, why is it...

...that they're early making themselves available when we're flying something else, you know, and why why are the videos always so so low death? I am I'm pretty sure there are more capabilities that our our military breathren it have, and so it's always interesting that we're seeing that. And I think you know the other the other thing from my perspective is you know you are fos right. What does that sound for? Unidentified? So you know, for example, if, just because I go and take my Coffee Cup and I crunch it up and it doesn't look like a Coffee Cup anymore and I throw it across the room, it won't look like a Coffee Cup. So it will be unidentified because you can't tell the Coffee Cup it's flying and it's also an object. So that would be a ufo right. So in a way it's almost like, okay, well, you know, if that's a u a phone than anything really see you are following, then we can start speculating. I I honestly don't believe we all alone in the UNs. That's just my postile opinion. I think you know that that's going to be small life forms out there. If not, well that's an interesting pot calls in itself. We just haven't found them and I think these are just, you know, some data points. That's of interest, but I wouldn't you know, think that, hey, by the way, that they're coming and visiting US only right in front of all pilots. You know, that just seems a little fall fetch to me. You'll think that they would show up at more interesting locations, like, I don't know. You know, they could go and visit some monument somewhere here in the United States. They can go and see something fancy. You know, why would they just go and see us in space? They would come to, you know, see something Nice. Yeah, Sharn Carroll, the cosmologist and gravitational theoretical physicist, does a podcast called mindscape and he was just talking literally about this. One of those people are asking about Leo. What are the odds? What proof for you need to see that sort of thing? He's like, I think the probability of there being fuzzy objects on camera screens or instrumentation devices like radar, whatever, and them not being identified and people speculating about them is like near one. Like certainly that happens. The odds that intergalactic outside space technology could fly all the way to earth and then try to hide from us but not hide good enough that we sort of see him? He's like I put that at almost zero. So it would take some real convincing evidence to get him over the goal line. Sounds like you as well. I'm certainly I followed the same camp. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, here's the thing. You'd think that it's they would come up on Poles, ring cameras, for example, like walk in the streets at certain times of the night, you know. So you know, like I said, comes a fault. Yeah, he's like he did. This was like, yeah, I think they're they're going to get here in like nuts, be able to be seeing at all or come down and say hello. I think the odds of there being a middle ground they're pretty low. Yeah, exactly, like what. It's almost like you coming so far and then saying, you know what, man, that's all right, I'm just going to turn around and go back right what, like, why would you do that? So you know what I've a I've one serious question. I think a lot of people out there are maybe asking this to himself, the devil's advocate. Do you not think there's a case to be made, you know, so to Luke's point about...

...like somewhere in the middle not get caught or come say hello? You know, they're it seems like they're being captured in the places where no one else is except for you know, airplanes that are in the middle of nowhere, at high altitude, zipping along really fast. Do you not think that there's do you think there's any realistic probability that they are being caught unawares and saying Oh Dang, you know, and zipping out of their real quick you do you feel like the probability of that is like at the Ed edge of negligible? So it almost just doesn't seem to make sense. Then again, I'm we're also trying to rationalize what it is that they're trying to do as well. Right, I think if they, if they had that human curiosity, I think they would kind of go and try to engage at some point. But again, these are like an influence, right, these could be like little books. Right, you know, if you go and see one of those little cicadas come out, you know, out of you right, that that's what we think Indians are going to be, right, that will over you. They just want to engage. But if you go and see like a little spider or you see like an animal of some kind of you try to reach for it, they go and scuttle away. Maybe that's what Adians are. Maybe this is exactly how they interact. Maybe this is normal, maybe it isn't. Maybe we're overthinking it and maybe someone went and caught, I don't know, like a deflated parachute flying somewhere and that moved. And you know, maybe, y'all, they're all going to achieve things out there. You know, they could be they could be bad tourists. You know. So, so, you know, visiting Earth is one of the areas that you can visit. You know, you save up for holiday, you get to visit a any planet galaxy. I've always wanted to go to earth and see the blue dot. You know, when you come to Earth and there's there's rules and you're supposed to go here at these times in these places, and but you see, yea, let's get a little bit closer. You know, this is like my you know my dad. Would you know when he goes to national parks, he's the guy that wants to step over the rope line and take a picture with the buffalo and I'm like, Dad, those are the people that get gored by the Bison, you know, and he's like no, come on it. So you know, the rules are for don't worry about it, you know. So, so, maybe we're looking at the like the aliens, that are the bad tourists. Yeah, I mean I would almost use the analogy of think of think about someone coming from another country. Right, let's go and say England. Everyone and them loves to come to New York City, right, everyone, because, my God, it's new or city. It's great. Well, that's almost the equivalent of saying, Hey, I've just landed at JFK, sweet, I'm in New York City, even though you're not really and then turning around and say, okay, I went to see New York City and I went back right, you're not really seeing anything, right. So, yeah, it definitely is bad tourist syndrome. If we want to go and create an acronym, I know that we love that here. So bts, it's all. Switzerland exactly like that, by the way. Well, when the the airport to the conference in the airport, flew right back out, ever up the airport and see, there you go, and you visited Switzerland. See, there you go. See. Yeah, Neil, I want to thank you for being on the show today. My friend, this has been a hoot. I enjoyed the pre I enjoyed the interview, I hope the folks...

...at home have enjoyed learning a little bit about space today. If people want to to catch up with you after this working folks find you. I have a linked in profile, so they go. I'm already dating myself by just saying that alone. So you can find me on Linkedin. Neil, Maltlich M Alik, I don't actually have a true digital profile. I'll give you the NASA one. So for us it's Nastabout Golf, obviously, and for space communications it's NASA dot golf forward Flash Scan. That's scam all right. So if you are looking, looking to connect with Neal Molick, it sounds like linkedin is the way to achieve it. Neil, thank you for so much for being on the show today. Folks on the show today. That's it today, folks. My Name Is Ryan and I'm luke. Thanks for listening, and I'm nail. Okay, this is I will see you guys on the Internet. You shouldn't have to worry about IOT projects dragging on or unreliable vendors. You've got enough on your plate. The right team of Engineers and project managers can change a pivotal moment for your business into your competitive edge varies. Close Knit crew of ambitious problem solvers, continuous improvers and curious builders know how to turn your ideas into a reality on time and up to your standards, with a focus on mitigating risk in maximizing opportunity, will help you build an Iot solution that you can hang your hat on. Let's bring your Iot idea to life. Learn more at very possiblecom. You've been listening to over the Air Iot connected devices and the journey. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to hit subscribe in your favorite podcast player and give us a rating. Have a question or an idea for future episode? Send it to podcast at very possiblecom see you next time.

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